WARNING "Ive been framed"

[scrapps]

Earlier today I waved good bye to my lovely shiney Monster. It has been impounded by Kent police.
I was stopped for a routine check for insurance/tax etc and when checking my bike they found that the frame number could not be read due to my powder coated frame.
So they decided to impound my bike to examine it and make sure its not a crash repair or stolen bike :grump:
So if you paint or get your bike frame coated make sure your original frame number is still visible a sticker or plate will not be accepted.

[Stafford]

That's a bit off, do they charge you for impounding still when cleared?

[Funkatronic]

nightmare, sorry to hear that scrapps, hope you get her back soon

how are they going to verify the frmae number without ruining your ppaintwork on the headstock

[Liz]

Scrapps, hope you get it sorted out soon! :worried:

[steeevvvooo]

grrr, am angry for you!!

Hope you get it back soon

[chris yeatman]

ohh mate thats not good news, hope we get our monnies back soon.

[scrapps]

If the frame is proved to be correct then i will not be charged for the recovery or for storage(if i collect same day its released)
They hope to be able to make the numbers show using chemicals and not have to scrape the powder coating.
The problem is that Ducati used dot matrix numbering that is crap at the best of times ?

[alan c]

Twats :Furious: Hope you get it back pronto.

[Rally]

Rich, a mate of mine had this problem as well on a Honda XR400. When he got it back, they had etched the numbers out so they showed again. I hope they don't do it to yours as well. :mad:

[scrapps]

To be fair they did spend ages trying to make out some of the numbers and the fact my belly pan covers the engine numbers and i did not have any allen keys to uncover it did not help.
So you live and learn and I hope my posting will stop others from getting there bikes taken.:banghead:

[Capo]

Pity they don't have something better to do

[buzzbomb]

Oh Rick what can I say, I'm..:shocked:

Whats wrong with todays police force, a decent bloke like you minding your own business, have they no bloody common sence...:banghead:

Hope you get it back soon and they apologise for your inconvenience...:grump:

Looking forward to meeting up with Heather and your good self at the weekender...:booze:

[slob]

Scrape it off neatly and cover with clear laquer?

[He11cat]

:(

I think my avitar is apt for once .......

[scrapps]

Oh Rick what can I say, I'm..:shocked:

Whats wrong with todays police force, a decent bloke like you minding your own business, have they no bloody common sence...:banghead:

Hope you get it back soon and they apologise for your inconvenience...:grump:

Looking forward to meeting up with Heather and your good self at the weekender...:booze:

Cheers, we look forward to meeting up with you again.
Its a pain as we both keep to the law as best we can and then get the full force when i make a small mistake.
I just hope the recovery/storage company take care with my bike and it comes back as good as it was.(not damage all that carbon you sold me)

[scrapps]

:(

I think my avitar is apt for once .......

Yep :rolleyes:

[pegboy]

Buggers, why don't they do something more interesting, hope you get it back soon.

[He11cat]

They must have been bored to give you a tug !!!...
pity they are not so bloody helpful when bikes do get nicked!!....

or when my work gets burgled and the kids stuff get smashed to bits AGAIN!!! :(
I despair at the mo .. not anti police ..
Well thats them filling out another 4 weeks of useless paperwork I guess ffs.

[He11cat]

Infact.. id say right ive counted 4 million 553 bits of glitter on my bike if I find as much as one missing there's going to be big trouble ;)

seriously hope they sort it fast and without damage... and a lesson to anyone having powder coat or paint that to be honest a lot of us would not give thought to!

[scrapps]

As you know He11cat its a much loved and very shiny bike so I am not happy to have it taken by the animals that are known as our local recovery services.
They turned up with a massive truck and did not have any bike straps with them so not the best start.
I am not anti police and any I have dealt with have been very fair/helpfull its the recovery and finding the number that worries me.
Sorry to hear your school has been burgled whats wrong with people smashing kids stuff and robbing from a special school,thats just wrong i hope they catch them and string them up.Grrrr

[Paranoid Dave]

thank goodness Eric's frame has the number clearly visible. Maldon taped it off when powdering and its now been laquered over.

hope it comes back safely and soon.

[Stuart42]

Hi Rich

sorry to hear about your bike.

Mines the same so fingers crossed I get some fair coppers as you did.

Cheers
Stuart

[Mr.Number]

Thats a pain for you fella, hope you get it back asap.

I hold a different viewpoint from the the others however.

If you had posted up that your bike had been nicked and was currently being used with a different identity and you found out it had been stopped by police but they didnt bother doing a frame check ?

Once again, it would just be a thread of complaints against police.

Its an inconvenience for you, but one you will move on from.......'with' your bike.

[Dookbob]

Not sure they are in order, surely with the number plate recognition system they can check out your Isurance, Tax, and MOT without even pulling you over.

[Kato]

Earlier today I waved good bye to my lovely shiney Monster. It has been impounded by Kent police.
I was stopped for a routine check for insurance/tax etc and when checking my bike they found that the frame number could not be read due to my powder coated frame.
So they decided to impound my bike to examine it and make sure its not a crash repair or stolen bike :grump:
So if you paint or get your bike frame coated make sure your original frame number is still visible a sticker or plate will not be accepted.

That is pure BULL they already new you had tax, mot and insurance so the routine check line is total B0110CKS, they were just being total ar$holes, I hate theses over zealous TW4TS.

[Mr.Number]

Whos riding it tho dook ?

[gary tompkins]

Albie had the same issue when he powdercoated the S4 frame - now owned by Martin. I thought he was told by MOT station that a sticker was acceptable? http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=28703&highlight=frame+number

My Buell has several stickers showing VIN number, but it's also stamped in the headstock. The dot matrix style lettering Ducati use makes powdercoating difficult, but it's to help prevent thieves re-stamping frames. It's also why factory frame finish is just spray painted. I used spray black smootrite on the trike frame - mainly to save time and cash.

If you prove the number and get a witness statement from cops.. maybe the number could be re attached on a stamped alloy plate, glued and/or riveted to the headstock? Hope you get it sorted in time for Arrow Mill.

[buzzbomb]

That is pure BULL they already new you had tax, mot and insurance so the routine check line is total B0110CKS, they were just being total ar$holes, I hate theses over zealous TW4TS.

Blimey Rob tell it like it is...:shocked:

And I thought you only add that much anger for Mr. Rossi...;);)

But I have to agree with you about the job worths...:thumbsdown:

[J.P]

Sorry to hear that fella, hope you get it sorted out soon

[slipperyweeguy]

The whole point of frame numbers is that they are the unique identifier for the chassis. The numbers should be masked before any refinishing, and the engine numbers should, too, but that is another story.
Plates that are riveted on can be swapped, so mean nothing, just like number plates.
Roadside checks on bikes (and cars) do detect vehicles that are carrying false plates. 20 years ago I bought from a salvage agent a year-old zxr750 that had been stolen and found some months later being ridden on false plates, fully taxed and on brand new tyres.
I twigged to the issue of powder coating or painting on the frame number when my second zxr was closely examined whilst parked outside my work. It attracted attention because it was non-standard finish and colour. The cops were very polite but it took them about 20 minutes to agree that they could read the VIN through the black satin powder coat.
It helped that they could read the engine numbers clearly. I was told that checks on engine numbers can be quite damaging to the cases.

[Diego]

sry to hear about your troubles m8. ffs it seems to be much ado about nothing and a waste of resources!

[sburrows87]

Yeah sorry to hear that mate, it's a real crap deal and a waste of time and resource


I'm not slating the police as most of the time they do a good job, but this targeting of motorcyclists has simply got to stop, especially when they allow people on the road with death trap caravans (swerving about, crappy wheels and tyres, blown lights) with no plates etc etc. In fact me and my mates won't go into certain parts of wales now from shropshire as it is simply ridiculous and you can bet you will be stopped and fined for some petty thing or another

[utopia]

I'm glad that the police are doing something to try to combat bike theft, but I would have thought that, having checked you for tax, insurance, etc and finding that all was well, they could have verified your identity with a few simple questions and then sent you on your way with a producer slip requiring you to make your frame number visible for inspection at a later date.
After all, they had no reason to suspect you of any offence.
What happened to 'innocent until proven guilty' ?
And its taxpayer money that pays for the impounding of the bike.

[Lucati]

I don't post very often but feel the need to comment.....

Yes it's a pain that the bike has been impounded but what if it had been nicked? We'd all be congratulating them not calling them all the names under the sun! It looks like a great bike but very obviously not the original paint job so that would automatically make checking the frame numbers a sensible enough idea. My critisism would be toward the company that powder coated over the number.

I hope you get your bike back ASAP Scrapps!

[Capo]

My new aluminium frame does not have a number, nor does the engine.

[Diego]

I don't post very often but feel the need to comment.....

Yes it's a pain that the bike has been impounded but what if it had been nicked? We'd all be congratulating them not calling them all the names under the sun! It looks like a great bike but very obviously not the original paint job so that would automatically make checking the frame numbers a sensible enough idea.



To each their own opinion however taking into account circumstance, evidence and persona the police officer could have easily deduced that in this case impounding the bike is slightly OTT.

[Mr.Number]

This situation will probably happen to someone else tomorrow and maybe already has. The bottom line is that motorcycles get stolen and there exists some very good criminals who know what they are doing when giving a bike a new identity.

The engine and chassis numbers are the DNA of the bike, without it, it has NO identity regardless of number plates. Therefore and rightly so, in the officers view it could be someone elses bike your riding on, someone who is well and truly pissed off that his/her beloved monster that they worked very ****in hard for is being ridden around stolen, potentially by some ****er who needs a good crack.

One way this MAY have been avoided and would have been a decision made by the officer, is whether you were in a position to produce your m.o.t / log book there and then.

The m.o.t as you know displays your engine/chassis number. The officer (depending on what time you were stopped) may then have been in a position to make an enquiry with the PERSON at the garage who carried out and SIGNED the m.o.t. Have you had the bike m.o.t since powder coating ?

Preferably this enquiry would be face to face, but if its a known garage in the area used by the local community then a phone call may suffice. Depends on the officer dealing.

Ultimately though the officer will want to see the frame number for himself.

Police dont give a **** about half wit comments and in this situation the identity of the bike was not known and thats a fact.

I hope you get your bike back sharpish, we are blessed with dry weather at the moment and knowing the uk, that wont last long !

[Capo]

If the numpties had any sense (which most do not) they would be turning up at track days and examining the bikes there, that where a lot of stolen machines end up.

This is/was a clear case of lets ruin someones day.

[Saint aka ML]

If the numpties had any sense (which most do not) they would be turning up at track days and examining the bikes there, that where a lot of stolen machines end up.

This is/was a clear case of lets ruin someones day.

Agree on TD bikes and disagree on rest.

Sorry Capo but it was not 100% clear so they prefer to impound it just in case it was stolen before it vanishes or ends up in parts.

You having no numbers on engine or frame sorry but if they stop you they have no reason to even give you the bike back at all. Law is quite clear there visible numbers. My numbers are half visible and I had issues at MOT but after bit of talk and proepr looking they got them and passed it but each MOT is pain.

I take my risk with that and either deal with problems when they arrise, not blame police for that one, or uncover the number.

The same goes for small palte, loud pipes.

[w108rna]

If the numpties had any sense (which most do not) they would be turning up at track days and examining the bikes there, that where a lot of stolen machines end up.

This is/was a clear case of lets ruin someones day.

They did. They turned up at Brands Hatch a month or so ago when there was a Club day meeting on, and loan behold, loads of bikes were found to be stolen and then seized. There were some happy people there, pleased to see the Police out doing what you have suggested, but plenty of people giving it the same old 'haven't they got anything better to do?' speel.

Its a loosing battle, no matter what they do, someone will be pi55ed off.

In fairness, i don't fancy your chances with the old bill if you have no numbers on your frame or engine. How do you pass the MOT? My bike nearly failed once because the tester couldn't read the digits properly and misread the numbers.

Each to their own though.

Link to Brands Hatch Police. On average 4 bikes in each race were stolen!!!

http://motorbike.access-legal.co.uk/2011/03/police-stolen-bikes-operation-at-brands-hatch-nets-11-of-machines.html

[scrapps]

So lots of interesting comments and views, I was not having a go at the police for doing a job we want them to do and try to find stolen bikes.
Its just my bad luck for not knowing the original number needs to be shown and not a sticker and not making sure the powder coaters left if clear.
My bike has been inspected and passed so I can get it back tommorrow :) I just hope the recovery company has looked after it.
I was stopped for checks as the anpr camera was reading front plates (no good for bikes) and as said to prove who is riding it.
my thread was to warn others so it does not happen to them PS kent police are having a crack down on stolen bikes so lots will be stopped for a while.

[w108rna]

So lots of interesting comments and views, I was not having a go at the police for doing a job we want them to do and try to find stolen bikes.
Its just my bad luck for not knowing the original number needs to be shown and not a sticker and not making sure the powder coaters left if clear.
My bike has been inspected and passed so I can get it back tommorrow :) I just hope the recovery company has looked after it.
I was stopped for checks as the anpr camera was reading front plates (no good for bikes) and as said to prove who is riding it.
my thread was to warn others so it does not happen
to them PS kent police are having a crack down on stolen bikes so lots will be stopped for a while.

Fingers crossed it's in just as great a condition as when it left you. Thanks for the warning though, it's very sound advice considering the Monster has such a modding following.

[Mr.Number]

Scapps it was a good thread you started i thought, as powder coating is popular and this will no doubt serve as a reminder to those considering having it done.

I liked the way you were fair and understanding of the police' role, unlike some others who havnt even gone through what you have ! They are shining examples of those on board the 'lets av a pop at police' band wagon. They end up on this wagon because at some point they have broken the law and didnt like it when the law was applied to deal with them.

I imagine your good nature has been of benefit as it seems to have been dealt with in good time. Hope you bike comes back as it was.

Whats your plans now to avoid this happening again ?

[revver]

That sucks !!!! Will have to go and check my other bike and make sure it's not covered when i get this my monster done. Cheers for heads up.

[Paivi]

I don't post very often but feel the need to comment.....

Yes it's a pain that the bike has been impounded but what if it had been nicked? We'd all be congratulating them not calling them all the names under the sun! It looks like a great bike but very obviously not the original paint job so that would automatically make checking the frame numbers a sensible enough idea. My critisism would be toward the company that powder coated over the number.

I hope you get your bike back ASAP Scrapps!
What he said.

There are so many ringed bikes and cars out there, so I don't think we should mind too much if the police were impounding those without frame/engine numbers for checking them.

But, there's no pleasing some people, the coppers to them will always be twats etc.

[Saint aka ML]

Scapps it was a good thread you started i thought, as powder coating is popular and this will no doubt serve as a reminder to those considering having it done.

I liked the way you were fair and understanding of the police' role, unlike some others who havnt even gone through what you have ! They are shining examples of those on board the 'lets av a pop at police' band wagon. They end up on this wagon because at some point they have broken the law and didnt like it when the law was applied to deal with them.

I imagine your good nature has been of benefit as it seems to have been dealt with in good time. Hope you bike comes back as it was.

Whats your plans now to avoid this happening again ?

I been stung by coppers in one way or another many times. I have mid field attitude towards them as sometimes they do take a **** but in this case sorry but fully with coopers.

TBH I would like for them to pop in to some bigger meetings as well to have a quick check.

I would be pissed off if bike was impounded for small plate as that is taking a ****, ticket is enough but if it was impounded for no frame number pending further investigation is another matter.

This brings a question if you had your insurance/MOT and some kind of photo ID on you would they let you go? I would suspect yes with slip to produce at closest police station.

[scrapps]

The bike will not be in the same condition as it was due to them scraping the frame to find numbers. I can only hope they took care doing it. And I had id all check for insurance came back ok and to my address so even with just the frame number missing seems enough to get your bike taken. Cheers for peoples support and comment for or against police. I know some people may have had dealings with police that they deem un fair and that's going to happen. My case was maybe a bit harsh but of my own making.

[buzzbomb]

Rick to my 67 year old eyes you have been treated rather harshly...:(

But you seem to have kept your composure...:thumbsup:

I hope that the frames not to badly marked...:worried:

And let it serve to us all about frame powder coating because I've now looked at the frame on my monkey bike which was PCed two years ago, yes you've guessed.. no numbers visible but its not taxed for the road so no worries...:chuckle:

Geoff.

[utopia]

Yes, the problem was initially of your own making, and full marks for your tolerant attitude.
However, if your insurance and other bike details checked out, and you could verify your own identity, and address, I still don't see why they needed to impound your bike.
Mind you, I'd have been tempted to scratch off the offending bit of powdercoat there and then, and would have expected the police to have suggested doing this, if they were trying to be at all reasonable.
I guess you get good ones and bad ones. Most are fine, but you do get the odd jobsworth bigot, and sadly these seem to have fallen into that category. Shame, because it alienates us from the majority of good ones out there.

[Mr.Number]

Utopia the bike had no identity.

[Capo]

Utopia the bike had no identity.

It has a registration number plate

[Diego]

It has a registration number plate

and the engine nrs under the belly pan if i'm not mistaken...sadly no tools....

[JerryT]

A registration plate proves very little - Frame and chassis numbers (plus matching engine numbers are what count. For instance, look at how VIN numbers are made difficult or even impossible to tamper with on newer cars by being laser cut in special fonts or shown in more than one place on the vehicle (e.g. only visible through a small window in the windscreen bonding on my car) to see why this is a problem which isd being taken seriously.

From the Police's side of things they must come across all types of people who have all sorts of excuses/reasons for why things are not as per the way the law says they should be. The police are trained to be suspicious, check and look for the evidence, rather than just take people's word for it. I know it seems harsh but there is a lot of money to be made passing off stolen frames as pukka and, of course some are badly welded crash/repair items that no sane rider would want to risk his/her life on.

There you go. Lesson learned I guess: keep the frame numbers visible or you haven't a leg to stand on. :gromit:

[Mr.Number]

A registration plate does not confirm identity, this was stated some time ago in the thread.

[Kerry]

What a bummer. Hope they took care of it. My bike is my baby so heaven help anyone who harms it. Hope you get it back ok as it looked really good when i saw it.

[chris yeatman]

glad ur getting ur bike back so soon dude, hope its unmarked and not damaged.

[Saint aka ML]

So did they scratch the number out or used some other, magical way?

[scrapps]

Sorry I did not post the final outcome.
I got the bike home two days after(was released next day) and the frame has had the coating ground/sanded back to show the numbers.
Care was taken by the police to only sand were the number is and they have not taken more coating than needed off.
Still leaves a big patch of bare metal that I need to sort. I have just covered it with some grease for now to stop it from rusting.
I just hope this thread stops others having the same fun and games as I did.

[Kato]

I'd send them a bill via a lawyer for the cost of having the frame re coated + the cost of two days bike hire along with a substantial claim for damages caused by their libelous accusation that you might be in possession of stolen goods.

[Julie]

I'd send them a bill via a lawyer for the cost of having the frame re coated + the cost of two days bike hire along with a substantial claim for damages caused by their libelous accusation that you might be in possession of stolen goods.

Its a shame you take this view.

I have had bike stolen and like the idea of the police being pro active. In scapps case he was the owner but what if he was one of the buggers who nicked my bike and been riding round on it!

As far as I can see it (and you can tell by Scrapps post that he feels the same)

Scrapps made a mistake - he was telling us so we dont do the same.

The police had every right to do what they did and it sounds like the tried to do minimum impact for the owner.

The police..... dammed if the Do Dammed if they don't

[Mr.Number]

............

[Capo]

You can stamp it on a plate

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm143/Tarugo996/571e0311.jpg

[PDL]

Oh well sort of happy ending, I recognise the bike from Cadwell last year.

[CK & AK]

I'd send them a bill via a lawyer for the cost of having the frame re coated + the cost of two days bike hire along with a substantial claim for damages caused by their libelous accusation that you might be in possession of stolen goods.

what a load of bollocks!
Ignorance is no defence.

Scrapps has said he didnt know he needed to have it clearly on the frame, and in posting here he has alerted others to this.
Those who have read about the 1st club race meeting (BEMSEE) this year at Brands Hatch will have read about the police raid there & the impounding of a number of bikes, most of which were returned to their owners after full checks had been made.

Kato, I know you are a mate, but you do talk some serious shyte sometimes :grump:

[utopia]

When it comes down to it, a frame number can do no more (on its own) than identify the frame, which is only one, relatively cheap component of a motorcycle.
The overall picture of identity is built up from a combination of factors which identify/verify various details about both bike and owner/rider. None of the details in this case were incorrect, though one (and only one) of them was obscured by paint.
That doesn't really seem to me to suggest any criminal activity, merely an enthusiastic owner.
It would have been different if any other factors didn't match up, but they all did.
Thats why I think the police were a little overzealous in this case in impounding the bike, causing inconvenience to the owner and unneccessary expense to the taxpayer which could have been used more effectively, but I am certainly not anti police, and I very much approve of the recent increased effort to reduce bike thefts. Its important to get the balance right though.
There is an old saying that laws are for the blind obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men. In this case, I would say the police fell somewhere between the two. I'd give them a fairly positive 7 out of 10 overall, maybe 8 even..not bad at all, but could do better.
But then, none of us are perfect.
And as Scrapps has agreed, he was in error in obscuring the frame number in the first place.
I still think though, that some sort of requirement to produce the visible frame number for inspection within a few days, would have been the sensible and cost effective course of action, and would also help reduce the unfortunate tendency of some to lose a little faith in the legal system when it acts inappropriately, and I admit to a little of that myself.

An excellent thread though,in making others aware of the practical implications of powdercoating over the frame number..... not that I'd have been daft enough to do that myself anyway......;)

"Life is complicated, its wearing my ass out...sometimes I just can't believe how much there is out there to doubt" ....Tommy Womack

Dunno whether to post this now. Don't want to push any opinions too hard. They mostly don't stand up to real close scrutiny anyhow. Some might say "the law is the law", and that would certainly be valid, up to a point ..quite a big point actually.
In the end, its either "post it" or accept that I've wasted half an hour pontificating pointlessly...hey-ho.

[Mr.Number]

'When it comes down to it, a frame number can do no more (on its own) than identify the frame'...............No **** detective.

Just to recap on some of the comments from the original poster.

"Impound the bike to examine it"..........Absolutely as they could not identify the dna of the bike, meaning the frame number and the engine number which was covered by the belly pan which could not be removed due to not having the tools available.

"If frame is proved correct then I will not be charged for the recovery or the storage (if I collect same day its released)". ..........as expected as youv been inconvenienced enough (provided your not committing offences).

"To be fair they did spend ages trying to make out some of the numbers and the fact my belly pan covers the engine numbers"...........sounds to me as though the police gave it a go to try and resolve the issue at scene but it wasnt possible to do so. Yet utopia is happy to say

" Most are fine but you do get the odd jobsworth bigot and sadly these seem to have fallen into that category".

Utopia also went on to say

"I'm glad that the police are doing something to try to combat bike theft, but I would have thought that, having checked you for tax, insurance, etc and finding that all was well, they could have verified your identity with a few simple questions and then sent you on your way with a producer slip requiring you to make your frame number visible for inspection at a later date.
After all, they had no reason to suspect you of any offence.

Utopia you say your glad the police are doing something to try to combat bike theft......but you give an example of what you think they could have done. Well I dont think your thought process is good enough.

You should understand whether we like it or not, police are trained to work with a suspicious mindset. I am of the opinion that scrapps came across as a decent member of the public but that does not provide the absent frame and engine numbers. There are other decent people out there innocently riding and driving other peoples vehicles that have been ringed and which can be easily taxed and insured.

YES - satisfied scrapps is decent
NO - I cant identify this bike, it needs to come in.

This was the correct way to deal with the situation. This is why.

Scrapps identity is confirmed and police are satisfied with that. They do what utopia wanted and give him a vdrs to produce his 'visible' frame and engine numbers within a few days (vdrs is 14 days). Utopia, any vdrs (vehicle defect rectification scheme) means the vehicle is produced at an mot approved testing station, not produced to the eyes of the police. Therefore a vdrs would not be issued for an absent frame/engine number, but Im making a point here so will go ahead with your idea.

So off goes scrapps with his vdrs.

Couple of days later, scrapps who came across all decent at scene, takes the bike to his criminal mate who works in an mot approved garage. This mate is able to stamp scrapps vdrs with the numbers from a previous existing bike (same model) which now relate to the bike scrapps is riding on, which is stolen from mr hard working who is still greatly pissed at the police for not yet finding it.

Scrapps then pops into the ps and produces his vdrs to the front desk clerk who stamps his vdrs as approved.

Scrapps then jumps on the bike and mr hard working is still left without a bike.
Had the officer gone along with his suspicious mindset and brought the vehicle in, mr hard working would have his bike back.............................................. ..

[Mr.Number]

........................

Pc Utopia you have an appointment with the superintendent who is issuing you with papers for neglect of duty. Oh and by the way, mr hard working is the head of the police authority.

Youv come out with all sorts of opinions which seem to fall on both sides, but decisions have to be made and all parties are not always happy with the outcome. Thank god you were not in a position to deal with scrapps, youd still be dealing with it now, provided you hadnt been sacked.

I'll say one thing tho, I think your opinions at least carry some value which is more than what can be said for kato who comes across a first class p****.

So kato you go in to have your free 30 minutes with a solicitor to tell them you want costs and damages from the police. How far into your chat do you think it will take before your told 'there is no basis to progress as the actions of the police were lawful' ?

Id say 5 minutes at the most, followed by a giggle amongst the suits.

[utopia]

Fair point about the covered engine number, I was forgetting about that, and that does make two, not one anomaly, so more grounds for suspicion.
And I have to admit that your comment about having opinions on both sides and taking ages to come to a decision does sound very much like character traits that I am regularly accused of, so I guess thats a fair point too.

[nambduke]

Sorry I did not post the final outcome.
I got the bike home two days after(was released next day) and the frame has had the coating ground/sanded back to show the numbers.
Care was taken by the police to only sand were the number is and they have not taken more coating than needed off.
Still leaves a big patch of bare metal that I need to sort. I have just covered it with some grease for now to stop it from rusting.
I just hope this thread stops others having the same fun and games as I did.

Doesn't powder coating come off with nitrmors? I think it'll soften it so removal is made easier.

Regards,
Mark

[Kato]

I fully agree with a lot of what’s being said here, and should Scrapps bike proved not to be kosher he'd have been nicked, he wasn't and his bike is back in its rightful place.

I don't agree with the bike being impounded, this is just overzealous I’m bored and am going to take it out on you today.

If they impounded Scapps bike and it turns out to be legit, they should be responsible for getting it back to him, not “we won’t charge you storage if you collect it PDQ”.

The finish on the bike is now damaged, they should be held accountable for the cost of its repair.

And lastly they left an innocent chap without transport for several days; therefore I see no reason why he should not be entitled to reasonable recompense.

I don’t think Scrapps did anything wrong at all, thousands of frames have been repainted or coated in some way to renew the finish without issue.

I have a set of replacement engine cases from Ducati they do not have any numbers on them, when I put that engine into the custom made frame which, does not have any numbers on it, they can scrape away all they like, there is nothing to find, just the reg number from the donor bike, what will they do then? Spark of a major international hunt for the missing numbers.

Mr.Number I guess by the way you are banging on and trying to justify a completely over the top and inappropriate action that you are a Copper, in which case you’ll have heard this many times before, go and arrest some criminals and stop picking on the easy target, bonus inducing, arrest count flattering innocent motorist.

[skank]

Let's See;

1. Beaten up by five cops, broken nose, false charges and 4 days in jail. Case thrown out of court.
2. Vespa stolen, reported to cops. Cops find scoot the next day and sell it to breakers yard; incorrectly assumed insurance would pay out. For two years police do their damnedest to get scoot crushed before IPCC finally pays for damages and I rescue scoot from crusher at last minute. No cops reprimanded.
3. Girlfriend threatened with rape and fire bombing by chavs, police not interested. Had to leave work and risk own health to chase chavs away from house.
4. Three attempts to steal Monster by bastards, Police tell me to chain bike up with better chain than bikes next to mine. Police only bother to come round after I chase off 4 scrotes with a "weapon" after 3rd attempt at theft.

As Ice Cube so succinctly put it: F*** tha Police.

[Mr.Number]

Kato,

your full of ****.

[Kato]

Kato,

your full of ****.

I was right then........thankyou for your kind words officer:flamed:

[Albie]

Blimey this thread is going some.
I first brought this up when I did my project s4r. I got paranoid about frame numbers covered up due to imminent MOT and I posted this up.
http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=28703&highlight=frame+numbers

I asked the coppers what I should do in the event. They said not to worry until the event. This is when Dunlop001 made me some foil stickers to which I placed over my attempted exposure. MOT guy was not bothered. I never ever got stopped but I bought this to UKMOC attention to stop others having the problem.

This wont ever go away and there will be more but I believe Scrapps was just unlucky and thanks to his calm temprement he has learnt his mistake. Its still NOT RIGHT to have your bike taken away but he had and has NO CHOICE other than being stroppy and facing more crap.

I felt a producer would have sufficed to him to take his bike there. They have his name and address and registation.

Now calm down boys. Its wrong and right. Kato's view's are understandable .
Lets learn from a mistake

Now you can shoot me :eek::eek::biggrin::biggrin:

[CK & AK]

Ref the mention about factory blank engine numbers, that is fine for road or race.
What is not, is tampered or removed numbers.
The police are able to finely check to see if there WERE ever numbers which have been ground out - this was done for a few bikes which were seized at the early race meeting in March.

As to no frame number, for road use purposes you must have an untampered frame number, or you would not be able to have an MOT or registration for a bike. (any built bike will need to be SVA, so thus needing a frame number)

Factory un-numbered frames are only available for racing, but you have to have certification and documentation - still difficult to prove once a bike is sold on, so the advice from ACU is to not use them for club racing.....

Regretfully, gone are the days when you can do as you please

AK

[utopia]

I can't really see how a sticker bearing the frame number would prove anything. Anyone can get a sticker. What if the frame number underneath was different? Unless that is, you have to prove identity by cross reference to the other data (which I refered to earlier), and were then issued with an official, coded sticker (which you could then stick on any bike you liked, so wouldn't count for much). Then again, if cross referencing would be enough to qualify for an official sticker, why wasn't it enough for the police in this case ?
Personally, to avoid the inconvenience of having my bike impounded (rightly or wrongly), I would only be prepared to rely on the original frame number being visible. And from now on I shall always carry the tools necessary to remove my bellypan at the roadside.
I do wonder whether the vehicle would have been impounded if it had had four wheels, and was driven by, say, a young mother with young children on board. Or what would have happened if the rider in this case had been on a trip down from scotland at the time.
Somebody has to pay for the cost of impounding, and if not the vehicle owner, then ultimately its the taxpayer.
From the other point of view, it must be hard being a concientious copper and have to be criticised for the failings of the system itself, or the failings of overzealous colleagues.
I guess if we want the increased effort to catch bike thieves, then we have to perhaps put up with unfortunate consequences such as this, in an imperfect world.
Hopefully though, threads such as this will increase awareness and perhaps encourage others to take steps to avoid falling victim.
So, thanks again to Scrapps, full marks for a tolerant attitude, slightly beyond the call of duty...and belated happy birthday, while I'm at it.

[Albie]

I can't really see how a sticker bearing the frame number would prove anything. Anyone can get a sticker. What if the frame number underneath was different? Unless that is, you have to prove identity by cross reference to the other data (which I refered to earlier), and were then issued with an official, coded sticker (which you could then stick on any bike you liked, so wouldn't count for much). Then again, if cross referencing would be enough to qualify for an official sticker, why wasn't it enough for the police in this case ?
Personally, to avoid the inconvenience of having my bike impounded (rightly or wrongly), I would only be prepared to rely on the original frame number being visible. And from now on I shall always carry the tools necessary to remove my bellypan at the roadside.
I do wonder whether the vehicle would have been impounded if it had had four wheels, and was driven by, say, a young mother with young children on board. Or what would have happened if the rider in this case had been on a trip down from scotland at the time.
Somebody has to pay for the cost of impounding, and if not the vehicle owner, then ultimately its the taxpayer.
From the other point of view, it must be hard being a concientious copper and have to be criticised for the failings of the system itself, or the failings of overzealous colleagues.
I guess if we want the increased effort to catch bike thieves, then we have to perhaps put up with unfortunate consequences such as this, in an imperfect world.
Hopefully though, threads such as this will increase awareness and perhaps encourage others to take steps to avoid falling victim.
So, thanks again to Scrapps, full marks for a tolerant attitude, slightly beyond the call of duty...and belated happy birthday, while I'm at it.

If you mean me ? The sticker is there to give anyone with a curious nature a visual. Ducati actually put frame number on the rear section near the seat lock. I put it there to cover the scraping of the powdercoat. No point in repainting the diabolical dot matrix etching that they call a stamp. I will never go over one agin and didn't on my moped either. I was just trying to be above the law to assist them looking. If you think the police would be fooled by a sticker your a chancer if its wrong.

[utopia]

Didn't mean anyone in particular.........:)

[Albie]

Didn't mean anyone in particular.........:)
I dont mind if you do. I was just explaining the reason why I had to do it. Made a mess and tried to clear it up as best I could. You wouldn't believe my anquish and I never got a tug. It was for MOT man who was ok about it.:yoparty:

[jerry]

The dot matrix numbers that Ducati use are terrible to view , I had to scrape the frame of the S4 to get it registered in thailand and even then the numbers are almost invisible