Fuel protest 2007

[banditloon]

http://www.transaction-2007.com/

Going ahead on Saturday 15th December @ 10am

[JerryXt]

better fill up my can then. My Jerry can :chuckle:

[banditloon]

better fill up my can then. My Jerry can :chuckle:

ho ho :spin: I nearly fell off my chair :p

[NattyBoy]

About time....we'll be hitting £1.10 a litre for diesel before you know it..

[S4 MAD]

already their in merstham.:fiery:

[banditloon]

Paying £1.07 in the local Shell for V-Power petrol, only because they seem to run out of unleaded very quickly (could be the low £100.9 price :chuckle:)

Good time for the protest. Sitting in the office trying to plan next weeks trailers to Gibraltar and now this falls over the weekend. i'm expecting a very quiet week next week :D

[Blind Alan]

About time....we'll be hitting £1.10 a litre for diesel before you know it..

its already £1.12 here. :mad:

[Dave G]

Utterly pointless:cool:

If they want to make themselves heard its whitehall they want to protest down , not some refinery somewhere, level of tax is what makes it so expensive here.

[JerryXt]

[flameproof suit]

IMHO, fuel is the right place for vehicle tax. Tax on use rather than ownership. For example, it's stupid to tax a 4x4 more than any other car if the 4x4 is used less.

There are people who are buying hybrids and doing 40K a year - they put out far more carbon than I would ever do (3k a year) , but they pay less road tax...

Also, where I live, people are buying 4x4s because the roads are like an assault course with all the speed humps and width thingies. Slowing to go over these things, then speeding up again (to 20mph) produces far more CO2 than driving along at a speed that the engine has been tuned to be efficient.

...also... (on a roll)... the bl**dy euro people have made cars heavier each year by introducing more safety stuff so the average car weighs a ton or more. My colleagues Saxo weighs 0.9 of a ton (more like 2 with the driver....)! That's a skateboard. More weight, more fuel used to propel the weight, more CO2 produced.

[/flameproof suit]

[neilbaldry]

Utterly pointless:cool:

If they want to make themselves heard its whitehall they want to protest down , not some refinery somewhere, level of tax is what makes it so expensive here.

trueness.

im just wondering what the Govt. is spending all this tax money on? the wars in Iraq and Afghan? schools? health? immigration? or Gordy's next holiday?!

[JerryXt]

road humps and sending it to Brussels.

And buying houses for worthless layabouts.

[Will]

Considering all the damage petrol (oil) is doing to the environment, it is still far too cheap!

Guess not many will agree with me, but we have to stop burning so much of this stuff.

I think that we should save it for what God intended it for, i.e. entertainment purposes, and stop wasting it on commuting to work in cars.

Before the whingers say that they live in country and their cars are essential - I say bl**dy well move closer to work or get a job in the country!

[gremlin]

I think they should do one massive protest against fuel prices and road pricing. Blocking every junction on the M25 would be good then maybe every haulier, van, car boycotting the congestion zones in London so Ken doesn't get any revenue. I didn't realise the lorry charge was so much per day, a lorry driver was saying if the lorry was over a certain age it could cost £200-400. I don't know if this is right. I suppose if everyone stayed at home for a week it would do some damage, after all most people can't use public transport and you can't claim for expense to get to work on your tax so everyone is worse off.
Oh and there aren't many jobs in the country and I'm damned if I'm going to live in the city, and as a builder you can't use public transport! I can't see the bus driver allowing us on the bus with a bath, so don't start getting on your high horse about country dwellers Will!

[banditloon]

Blocking every junction on the M25 would be good

That's just a normal Friday rush hour problem, so no one would notice :chuckle:

We were discussing about the road fund licence in the office today. Scrap it altogether, put the tax onto petrol, and (as Jerry posted), pay the tax on usage rather than the size of the vehicle.

Plus, seeing as I have on average 4-6 foreign (Spanish) registered trailers moving freight for us, this would make those sneaky buggers pay something towards the UK roads (allegedly!).

Right off to stock pile loads of petrol and diesel for the end of the world :chuckle:

[Will]

I think they should do one massive protest against fuel prices and road pricing. Blocking every junction on the M25 would be good then maybe every haulier, van, car boycotting the congestion zones in London so Ken doesn't get any revenue. I didn't realise the lorry charge was so much per day, a lorry driver was saying if the lorry was over a certain age it could cost £200-400. I don't know if this is right. I suppose if everyone stayed at home for a week it would do some damage, after all most people can't use public transport and you can't claim for expense to get to work on your tax so everyone is worse off.
Oh and there aren't many jobs in the country and I'm damned if I'm going to live in the city, and as a builder you can't use public transport! I can't see the bus driver allowing us on the bus with a bath, so don't start getting on your high horse about country dwellers Will!


I repeat - we have to stop burning so much of this stuff; making it cheaper will mean that we burn more not less - that is a fact.

Some people, like builders, will always need to use fuel - but if they choose to stay in that line of work then they will have to pay the increased prices and pass it on to their customers.

What is the alternative? - keep fuel cheap; burn more; do more damage to the environment - that cannot be good.

When it comes down to it, most of us are just plain selfish and put our own greed ahead of everything else - and then blame someone else when it all goes t*ts up!


P.S.
OH and another thing - stop building new roads; they just fill up with more traffic burning yet more fuel - DOH! how thick is that!

[banditloon]

I didn't realise the lorry charge was so much per day, a lorry driver was saying if the lorry was over a certain age it could cost £200-400. I don't know if this is right.

Thats probably to do with the emissions zone which is coming into force in 2008 around London! Those nice cameras (that look like SPECs ones, but aren't) will be monitoring the emissions of each vehicle and recording the number plate and then sending the owner a bill. Nice!

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/default.aspx?lang=pl

[Nickj]

I think that we should save it for what God intended it for, i.e. entertainment purposes, and stop wasting it on commuting to work in cars.

Before the whingers say that they live in country and their cars are essential - I say bl**dy well move closer to work or get a job in the country!

Errrr Deeply green that Will surely the frivolous use for fun is the first thing that should go... ;)

OMG!!! I shall have to stop enjoying thrashing to work and look suitably miserable... Mustn't enjoy this... Won't enjoy this... Mustn't enjoy this... Won't enjoy this... Mustn't enjoy this... Won't enjoy this... Or most probably not :D

[Nickj]

Those nice cameras (that look like SPECs ones, but aren't) will be monitoring the emissions of each vehicle and recording the number plate and then sending the owner a bill.

Time to ditch the oil vapour feed to the air filters then :thumbsup:

[gremlin]

We've been looking at doing biodiesel for the Landy and possibly fuel for the Rayburn. It seems quite cheap to do once you've got the tanks etc. As himself is very handy at building stuff even that bit can be done cheaper than the companies want to charge. Then we won't be giving anything to the sh1tbag government apart from vehicle tax and MOT fees. Now you can use 2500 litres without paying duty it seems the way to go, and it's eco friendly too. I'm not sure about bioethanol and whether the bikes could run on it but it would be good to be able to run them for less too. Apparantly the duty will be charged on lorries of a certain age because before a certain date they didn't have a new exhaust cleaning system or something I was having a coughing fit as the chap was telling us.

[Will]

Errrr Deeply green that Will surely the frivolous use for fun is the first thing that should go... ;)

OMG!!! I shall have to stop enjoying thrashing to work and look suitably miserable... Mustn't enjoy this... Won't enjoy this... Mustn't enjoy this... Won't enjoy this... Mustn't enjoy this... Won't enjoy this... Or most probably not :D

It's not about being deeply green - frivolous weekend rides and summer touring are not the big offenders.

The big problem is the gazillions of cars on the roads everyday, mostly with only one person in them; it's an addiction that I suspect that most don't even know that they have!

I do use my bike to commute if the weather is good, otherwise I use the bus. Wife uses car to commute to work - she is a bl**y criminal and if I could get away with clamping her car I would! She never whinges about petrol prices - she would not dare!

P.S. I am not a Green, most of the ones I've come across are weirdos with some sort of political agenda as their main motivation.

[Nickj]

I'd use a bus but I'd need to use 3 plus a train for 26miles Oh and it takes about 2.5 hrs. So it's bike for me, 30 mins door to door at a surprising 60mpg, just worked it out and it surprised me anyway!!

LOL Was the green-ness of the concept Will, wouldn't accuse anyone of being 'green' as I've also noted the odd balls involved in it.

Gremlin thats not using palm oil is it?? Seems that churning up rain forest to grow the stuff for a greener fuel makes sense too!!

[gremlin]

God no, I can't believe that it's considered a green alternative. We'll use waste oil from our mates cafe and the chippy. I did suggest putting some fragrance oils in to counteract the smell of chips but himself gave me one of those looks! The other bonus is the by product from the process is soap so I'll save time on my soapmaking and may be able to sell some at the farmers market to offset the cost of chemicals.
I think some people have very little concept of how crap public transport is. The time/cost of trying to get anywhere makes it a no no for so many people. I physically struggle to get to our nearest bus stop due to the pain of walking that far (nearly a mile) and I wouldn't be able to do the shopping and get it home. The buses get cancelled regularly too so you can't rely on them to get you anywhere.

[Nonnie]

With you there Gremlin. If you could pull off the chip fat I'd be intrigued for sure.

For my work I need a car, it's not something that can be done at home or on a bike (motor or push). I have to travel to as many as 5 different places a day all in rural locations where public transport mostly doesn't go with a whole load of heavy stuff and it just wouldn't work. And this IS a job in the country!

If I could do something like convert my car (cheaply because I'm not made of money) to run as cheaply and greenly as possible then undoubtedly I would as I think most people would but the resources aren't there yet in reality.

I remember the protests a while back causing people to panic buy and queue for hours for unleaded, luckily my car ran on four star and I jumped the queue every single time! Sadly I have a diesel so I'll just have to wait or failing that, syphon the heating oil out of my tank. Would that work? It's just gone up to about 42p a litre but that's less than half price!

[Nickj]

Let it stand for a bit until all the gunk settles, then pour into another container after filtering out all the fish bones, lumps of batter and stray chips. Toss in the tank and it'll work fine.
If you're planning on total chippy power then you need to put more effort into the cleaning and filtering

[gremlin]

syphon the heating oil out of my tank. Would that work? It's just gone up to about 42p a litre but that's less than half price!
__________________

yes, but add a splash of 2stroke oil

[Nickj]

Worked in a Pajero diesel engined hybrid and a Cherokee, problem is getting enough!!

[Nonnie]

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/eco/biofuel.html

Interesting reading! But you do still have to pay duty. I don't know how old this report is so I wonder if it's still cheaper.

I bet if more people start doing it though, funnily enough the duty you'd have to pay would go up so it would be in line with the current rate at the petrol station.

[Will]

.........
For my work I need a car, it's not something that can be done at home or on a bike (motor or push). I have to travel to as many as 5 different places a day all in rural locations where public transport mostly doesn't go with a whole load of heavy stuff and it just wouldn't work. And this IS a job in the country!

If I could do something like convert my car (cheaply because I'm not made of money) to run as cheaply and greenly as possible then undoubtedly I would as I think most people would but the resources aren't there yet in reality........

This is the nub of much of the problem - "I need my car" - why? - would you consider changing your job?

I'm sure that lots of people will think that it is unfair to ask such a thing and be terribly affronted by such a suggestion - particularly if it meant they became poorer.

We have become addicted to our lifestyles and can't seem to comprehend alternatives.

I'm deliberately playing Devils advocate - not trying to be offensive; but we ought to be putting real effort into changing our lifestyles rather than complaining about the price of fuel.

[DavidEJM]

My thoughts

1. Personal transport is going to be needed for years to come, there is just not a practical alternative.
2. With that in mind we would be better served if the tax from fuel went to researching and implementing a viable alternative to fossils fuels to power personal transport.
3. However the reality is that UK PLC need the tax revenue to cover exisiting liabilities. Tax from Road Fund Licence and Vehicle Excise Duty has never been used for the benefit of the people paying the tax, it is just an ever easier way for government to raise cash with the side effect of appearing green.
4. Yes - build a better road network. The number of vehicles on the road will increase irrespective of the cost for quite some time (we all moan about the cost but without a viable alternative we are a long way off giving up our cars for financial reasons). How much fuel wastage is caused by vehicles idling, blowing emmisions into the atmosphere and not going anywahere? How is that better?

We need (and here comes a governement cathphrase) a proper 'joined up' transport policy of the sort that gets vehicles off the road.

a. investment in fuel research
b. a review of how the transport of goods over long distances could be improved (waiting for the flak from that one) by talking and listening to the people in the industry!
c. encouraging employers to allow and provide for home working for those that can.
d. improvements in public transport

For the record, I'm fed up with feeling pursecuted for driving a car. In fact the more I get fed up with the situation, the less likely I am to change my ways!!!

Also, I don't see the benefit of everyone jumping on the diesel bandwaggon, they pollute just as much as petrols and the particulate emmissions are worse for those with asthma. When I owned one, it seemed to use just as much fuel (obviously the way I drive) and the cost per litre was higher?!

I'm sure there are plenty of other things to add, but I'm too tired to think properly.

[DavidEJM]

Oh, one more thing. The amount of emmissions from cars in this country is so insignificant as to make the arguement irrelevant. Over the next 40 or 50 years the expansion of the BRIC economies (type 'BRIC report' into google and have a read) will dwarf any benefits gained, even if we all give up our cars overnight.

Now that itself is no excuse, it's just a fact of life. If, however the brains of the world pooled resources and made alternative clean fuels (and it is likely to be more than a single solution) a reality, that benefit could be passed on to all energy users including the emerging nations which would, in turn, benefit us all.

[JerryXt]

Will, I'll stand with you. There are a lot of people who travel more than a hundred miles a day to get to work and back by train or car. It simply isn't necessary - it's their choice to live where they do and commute so far.

One guy I work with at the moment travels an hour to get to work when there are hundreds of companies in the area he lives in. You can bet that there are people travelling from where he works to the town he lives in. He's not special in any way - it's just that is what he does.

To me it is ludicrous that people use a 2 or 3 ton hunk of metal to move themselves around. Sure, there are always going to be people who need cars for their work, but for every one of those, there are hundreds who don't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a real believer in global warming, rather I see a waste of the worlds resources for no real reason.

I don't know what the answer is, but I do think that sitting in traffic jams every day in 3 litre cars is a bit silly. And trains and buses are just as bad at creating pollution.

[Nickj]

Good starnd this :)
Nice find there Nonnie.. Sheesh imagine the horror in the halls of power, cheeky oiks only paying VAT on fuel, gotta stamp that out and get duty levied on it.

'Would you consider changing your job' OK I live in the middle of a forest and my transferable skills are a little bit niche market, globally accepted but not very 'villagey'.. Having said that I've thought about it, would be nice not to be effectively on-call 24/7 365 days a year.

On the I need my car.. Last time I was over in the states, we went out to eat, a whole 2 blocks away. Apparently it was impossible to walk that far, I don't think they'd have even considered it a feasible option. Sheesh they'd drive to get a carton of milk and you could see the shop out of the window!! Left me slightly puzzled that did. Must admit I did make a lunch date with a cutie from South Virginia which meant a few hundred miles drive, LOL was a looooong lunch so I had a few days with no driving.
In Oz we drove over 150 miles to get to one shop, was worth it for the giant concrete sheep (a marino ram I understood it to be), big things are just one of Au's bizarre afflictions. Milton Keynes cows have noting on that sucker and Robbo's spud would mush them LOL!!

On Cars... I have an old MR2 sadly dead, but it's emissions were really low. The cosworth copy engine and the fueling system beat emissions on modern engines that were getting breaks on tax. I asked for mine but was told that yes I did have proof that the emissions were more than low enough to meet the class C limits but no it didn't apply as it was too old. So I remapped it got 30% more power and said sod you!

[DavidEJM]

So I remapped it got 30% more power and said sod you!

I like the way you think, NickJ
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

[gremlin]

The change your job to suit where you live is all well and fine but some jobs are needed and with the best will in the world you need to travel for them. As for using heating oil Nonnie, I've got a feeling most diesels will be ok and the bonus is if for some reason your tank gets dipped by plod there is no dye so you should get away with it. There is quite a bit of filtering to do for chip oil but it will be worth the effort hopefully. It probably won't be as viable for the heating oil because there won't be much difference in price although some people say it costs 11p a litre to make others say up to 45p. Obviously 45p for diesel is great but heating oil is that price anyway.

[Scotty]

ahh yes maintaining that life style, its what i do, spend all available cash on bike
and as such lots of stuff is secondary foreign holidays ? what are they then ? gouse decoration pft i laugh at you, new clothes ? (even my leathers are decidedly second hand)

as it is the massive 15 mile commute i do each way is cheaper by motorbike than public transport not to mention the time and waiting about which drives me insane

i would cycle to work as its not exactly far however i wonder what that would actually save me i would defiantly eat more but i guess push-bike consumables are almost negligible might do that come spring don't fancy it much at the moment coming (back from broken ankle all the fitness i might have had has disappeared :( )

[gremlin]

didnt mcn do a scientific study on cyclists? i believe it was a cross london ride between a 600cc bike and your average lentil eating vegitarian cyclist. unfortunately when it came to emmisions, the cyclist lost on greenhouse gas emmisions !!!!

[Zimbo]

Hasn't the link between global warming and CO2 emissions been comprehensively disproved by almost all scientists studying the issue? Asside from that, cars produce only a small fraction of total CO2 emissions, far less than livestock for instance (kill all the cows!!!) and even that is a tiny fraction of the CO2 released by simple evaporation from the sea.
I'm afraid the government is using the "green" issue to raise huge tax revenue from the motorist, and I don't consider it at all justified. Sure, as earlier pointed out, fuel is the right place for vehicle tax, but at a fair level please, it's several times a fair level in my opinion! I see it as no different to the government speed camera issue - there is comprehensive, undeniable evidence, produced by the government's own departments and by the police, that demonstrate that exceeding the speed limit is responsible for only 3 - 4 % of accidents, however enormous revenues can be extracted from the motorist through speed enforcement so the government not only ignores the evidence, it actively stops the evidence becoming public knowledge.

We pay far too much tax on fuel, and it's unjustified.

[Nonnie]

This is the nub of much of the problem - "I need my car" - why? - would you consider changing your job?

I'm sure that lots of people will think that it is unfair to ask such a thing and be terribly affronted by such a suggestion - particularly if it meant they became poorer.

We have become addicted to our lifestyles and can't seem to comprehend alternatives.

I'm deliberately playing Devils advocate - not trying to be offensive; but we ought to be putting real effort into changing our lifestyles rather than complaining about the price of fuel.


Yes I could change my job but it would be very difficult to find one that was term time and during school hours because I couldn't afford childcare for 3 kids, I'd then have to get these kids off to school so if I was catching the bus, it's an hour between buses into Norwich so I could probably get to this new job for roughly 10am then I'd have to leave at 2pm to get back in time for school finishing but I spent over a year looking for the right job that fitted in, was enjoyable and made me feel productive (none of the OMG it's Monday morning again). I have no wish to not work therefore making me a productive tax paying member of society but there are serious limits to my hours and days because of the kids school.

It's impossible pretty much to go back on technology once you've experienced it! I'd much rather find a better cleaner greener cheaper way of getting around in the car. There are alternatives they just need to be affordable and within easy reach of the normal person.

Completely understand what you are saying Will and no I'm not taking it personally.

[Lucati]

Is it true you can run Ducatis on extra virgin oliveoil?

[Nonnie]

I say let's try pasta!

[Will]

Hasn't the link between global warming and CO2 emissions been comprehensively disproved by almost all scientists studying the issue? ........................
We pay far too much tax on fuel, and it's unjustified..................


1. No it has not been disproved - in fact the opposite is the case, not proven beyond all doubt, but there is now enough evidence to show that it's having a significant effect on global warming and its effects are accelerating. (See Scientific American article from a few months back).

2. You may think that we are paying far too much tax on fuel; however petrol is just as cheap, in real terms, as it's ever been. So increasing fuel taxes are not causing people to cut their consumption - what price does it have to be for us to start changing our lifestyles? I guess there will be riots on the streets before that happens - how stupid is that?

[Will]

I say let's try pasta!

Pasta is still carbon based - so that won't help!

[mad_turnips]

effect from emmisons is low the earth is heating up anyway its in its warming up cycle ( any degree lvl geographer upwards will tell you that )

so if its it down to to much cost then if the yanks made their cars as fuel efficent as europeen ones i think it cuts fuel intake and emmissions over the globe by 20% ergo less demand so less premium

[Nonnie]

Pasta is still carbon based - so that won't help!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2195538.ece

I couldn't resist!

Apparently the trick is to drive but eat less!

[Zimbo]

. So increasing fuel taxes are not causing people to cut their consumption - what price does it have to be for us to start changing our lifestyles?


Could that be that, for most of us, it's neither a choice nor a lifestyle option? Our economy is totaly dependant on our mobility. I don't know about you, but I don't drive around for fun, I drive 50,000 miles plus a year because I need to go places, not because I want to go places. this tax is not going to cut my mileage down, it's not an option for me or for most others. Take our cars away and our economy would totally collapse, leading to mass poverty and starvation.

[Scotty]

Could that be that, for most of us, it's neither a choice nor a lifestyle option? Our economy is totaly dependant on our mobility. I don't know about you, but I don't drive around for fun, I drive 50,000 miles plus a year because I need to go places, not because I want to go places. this tax is not going to cut my mileage down, it's not an option for me or for most others. Take our cars away and our economy would totally collapse, leading to mass poverty and starvation.

bring on the apocalypse :flamed:

[gremlin]

It's ok to say ut fuel cost into price of job but it is pretty cut throat out there and there is always someone who will say they'll go cheaper to get the job then bump the price up at the end. We have been doing stupid miles to go to work, but it was the only option due to Clive being good at what he does and being a highly recomended by one of the top bathroom showrooms in London. Even they are now feeling the pinch so we are trying to break into the market closer to home which is proving very difficult. It's a sad fact of life that you have to travel to where the work is. Unfortunately we can't fit peoples bathroom from the comfort of our home and we need the Landy to get tools and materials from suppliers to site. We are known for recycling as much as possible and now we are trying to be greener by hopefully running the Landy on biofuel. IT based careers can be done from home but other trades can't.

[Will]

Could that be that, for most of us, it's neither a choice nor a lifestyle option? Our economy is totaly dependant on our mobility. I don't know about you, but I don't drive around for fun, I drive 50,000 miles plus a year because I need to go places, not because I want to go places. this tax is not going to cut my mileage down, it's not an option for me or for most others. Take our cars away and our economy would totally collapse, leading to mass poverty and starvation.


Change can't happen over night - but still needs to happen; people DO chose their jobs, we are not forced to drive 50,000miles per year.

[Will]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2195538.ece

I couldn't resist!

Apparently the trick is to drive but eat less!

There are always a few crackpots around to liven up the debate! Good thing too.

[Will]

It's ok to say ut fuel cost into price of job but it is pretty cut throat out there and there is always someone who will say they'll go cheaper to get the job then bump the price up at the end. We have been doing stupid miles to go to work, but it was the only option due to Clive being good at what he does and being a highly recomended by one of the top bathroom showrooms in London. Even they are now feeling the pinch so we are trying to break into the market closer to home which is proving very difficult. It's a sad fact of life that you have to travel to where the work is. Unfortunately we can't fit peoples bathroom from the comfort of our home and we need the Landy to get tools and materials from suppliers to site. We are known for recycling as much as possible and now we are trying to be greener by hopefully running the Landy on biofuel. IT based careers can be done from home but other trades can't.

The fuel cost is the same for everyone.
People have always undercut on quotes and will always do so - same in every business, including the one I work in.

[Zimbo]

Change can't happen over night - but still needs to happen; people DO chose their jobs, we are not forced to drive 50,000miles per year.


Someone's got to. If you're a specialist in a particular field you need to travel all over the country, sometimes all over Europe or the world, to do what only you can do.
I do agree we need to find a clean and sustainable alternative to Fossil Fuels, and that we could cut down a fair bit on miles travelled as a society, my point was that giving up the car is not an option for many of us and therefore taxing fuel to the hilt isn't fair. I'm all for a fair level of tax on fuel, but I'm currently paying over £5K a year in fuel tax alone.

[farl]

The Italian lorry drivers are on a 5 dayer over fuel prices. Should be interesting.

[JerryXt]

I don't disagree with what people are saying about needing to move easily and cheaply for work - builders, consultants etc. This was one of the tennets of Thatchers economic strategy, and it's worked.

What I have a problem with is the number of people who use cars everyday and travel big distances for no real reason other than they live in place X and work in place Y having no regard for the consequences of what they're doing.

If people really thought about it, they could have a better quality of life, save a lot of money and help the environment by not taking those journeys twice a day, every day. FFS, one of my colleagues is buying a Volvo estate - one of the big ones - because he travels to work in it every day and has a dog. No kids, no real reason to have this (second) car other than he wants to drive 50 miles to work and back. This car costs 50% of his salary. Is that rational?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-car, I have an old 300bhp audi that does us well, I just don't see the need to spend hours a day in one and £600 a month on purchase and running costs. It's not really sensible from any perspective.

[Will]

Someone's got to. If you're a specialist in a particular field you need to travel all over the country, sometimes all over Europe or the world, to do what only you can do.
I do agree we need to find a clean and sustainable alternative to Fossil Fuels, and that we could cut down a fair bit on miles travelled as a society, my point was that giving up the car is not an option for many of us and therefore taxing fuel to the hilt isn't fair. I'm all for a fair level of tax on fuel, but I'm currently paying over £5K a year in fuel tax alone.

I disagree - we do all the option of changing our jobs and/or lifestyles - we just need the will to do so (it's human nature to resist change until forced to). If one insists on a lifestyle that includes a car then we will have to pay an ever increasing price for petrol, and rightly so.

Substitute non-polluting (non-carbon) energy sources would be great; a few come to mind; wind, wave, nuclear. Hydrogen could be used for cars but at the moment it can only be made by putting electricity through water - which is only OK if electricity comes from nuclear, wind or waves.

What is a fair tax on a finite, polluting resource? Is it one that allows people to carry on as they are, or is it one that that puts pressure on people to change their ways for the benefit of all?

[Will]

I don't disagree with what people are saying about needing to move easily and cheaply for work - builders, consultants etc. This was one of the tennets of Thatchers economic strategy, and it's worked.

What I have a problem with is the number of people who use cars everyday and travel big distances for no real reason other than they live in place X and work in place Y having no regard for the consequences of what they're doing.

If people really thought about it, they could have a better quality of life, save a lot of money and help the environment by not taking those journeys twice a day, every day. FFS, one of my colleagues is buying a Volvo estate - one of the big ones - because he travels to work in it every day and has a dog. No kids, no real reason to have this (second) car other than he wants to drive 50 miles to work and back. This car costs 50% of his salary. Is that rational?

with no services or jobsDon't get me wrong, I'm not anti-car, I have an old 300bhp audi that does us well, I just don't see the need to spend hours a day in one and £600 a month on purchase and running costs. It's not really sensible from any perspective.


I agree!

The A14 is full of twits like this every morning! They live in modern build, trendy, naff, 'dormitary villages' with no services and commute like rats to and from work everyday (after doing the school run) - and most of them think that this is how one should live!

The problem is; this marketing driven, dozy, moronic lifestyle is so ingrained that their tiny brains can't think any further than the next 42" HD LCD telly or SUV that they 'must have' or the neighbours won't think that they are middle-class or trendy enough!

I've probably upset a few people now! :running:

[JerryXt]

I've probably upset a few people now! :running:

Will, you've got a GS....

[Nonnie]

I agree!

The problem is; this marketing driven, dozy, moronic lifestyle is so ingrained that their tiny brains can't think any further than the next 42" HD LCD telly or SUV that they 'must have' or the neighbours won't think that they are middle-class or trendy enough!

:

Yeah OK, I'd really really like a big telly, I really would. That's because I want one and I need one! Where we live, there are no services (6 miles for a packet of biscuits - just to impress you all, I make my own now!) and there is nothing to do other than walk in the countryside which is nice enough but sometimes you got to have a little bit more so I want a really big telly. That way we can watch movies the way they're meant to be watched if you have to do it at home. Also as soon as I've dropped the kids off at school, I go to work! It would take me about an hour and a half to walk there and back if I didn't drive and that would eat in to my working day thus making us poorer and I don't intend to be poorer. I don't have a 4 x 4 though but I do have an 8 seater diesel. That only just takes care of the 3 kids (separated so's they don't argue! Fantastic, should have got one years ago) and the enormous amount of stuff required for my job so I do think it's all pretty neccessary to maintain a comfortable lifestyle and that is what I want. It is what most people want I'm sure.

The only thing I fall down on in Wills sweeping generalisation is the fact that I seriously don't care about keeping up with my neighbours or what the hell they think of me. I don't like most of them!

I may also fall down on the tiny brain issue but that just depends on your point of view.

And I'm a crackpot and the neighbours don't like me either!

p.s. Whats an SUV?

[Zimbo]

I disagree - we do all the option of changing our jobs and/or lifestyles - we just need the will to do so

You've missed my point Will. Your generalisations do make sense for most people, but not everybody works in an office, or even in a fixed place. I travel because my job requires me to travel. Sure, I could change job and get a local office job and cycle in each day, that doesn't solve my buisness's requirements for a technical specialist to make site visits though. because what I d is specialised, my skills are not available to the customer locally. If the systems I currently support are disposed of the industries (including recycling and waste transfer, incidently,) become less efficient, leading to more wagons on the road and higher costs. i accept i'm a special case, but I'm not unusual, there are thousands of people like me doing high mileages to keep industry and the economy going.

[Nonnie]

I wish I hadn't written such an epic spiel there.

I could just have said "Sheesh, I really ****ing want a big **** off tv"

Does that make me a bad person?

[gremlin]

It's pretty daft to say choose a different job. If everyone like us chose not to do our job and changed to a home or local based career I'd like to know who would be building houses, doing repairs etc, and which would you prefer the local cowboy builder or someone from further away with a good reputation? . We don't have the latest of everything, yes we have the landy but she is the smallest practical vehicle we could have bearing in mind she is not only used for work but she goes across fields to carry our firewood home, tows trailers, carries kids, dogs, chicken feed, bales of straw etc and gets us to where we need to go in all conditions. She also does around 40 to the gallon which is actually not too different to my allegedly eco friendly eurobox.
We don't have gritters so the roads are lethal in winter, no doubt Nonnie has the same problem.
It would help if there was a better public transport network when you can't physically go 5 miles to the nearest town without going on a 34 mile round trip by bus it all gets pretty pointless especially when you aren't allowed on the bus with your shopping. My daughter got stranded in Norwich with her 3 week old baby last year because the bus driver wouldn't let her on the bus with the push chair, I had to rescue her which was a 14 mile round trip.
It would help if the politicians who run the country had to try to work outside London and see how they manage paying through the nose for the privilige of having a job.
Why is it that every other country has lower fuel costs, the fuel is bought in at the same price, it's just the greed of this lot and it's not as if the extra money raised is going towards a better transport network.
More freight should go by rail, and why not reopen the canal network for goods that don't have to be fast tracked. And I don't get the electric car craze, the power has to come from somewhere to charge them, the extraction of the cadmium causes untold damage to the environment, they cost more to produce energy wise and the batteries can't be recycled and don't last that long. Why haven't the boffins come up with a means of using spent nuclear fuel to power cars etc.

[Mand]

I wish I hadn't written such an epic spiel there.

I could just have said "Sheesh, I really ****ing want a big **** off tv"

Does that make me a bad person?

Nonnie you are a bad person! Now if you are going to get a big fu*k off tv, get a Sony Bravia, they are ace ;)

[Nonnie]

Nonnie you are a bad person! Now if you are going to get a big fu*k off tv, get a Sony Bravia, they are ace ;)

Yeah alright then. I'll wait for the sales because then I'll feel less guilty at having destroyed the environment whilst saving hundreds of pounds!

Do they come with plasticine bunnies or do I have to make my own?

[gremlin]

Don't know what they were smoking when they came up with that ad!

[Will]

You've missed my point Will. Your generalisations do make sense for most people, but not everybody works in an office, or even in a fixed place. I travel because my job requires me to travel. Sure, I could change job and get a local office job and cycle in each day, that doesn't solve my buisness's requirements for a technical specialist to make site visits though. because what I d is specialised, my skills are not available to the customer locally. If the systems I currently support are disposed of the industries (including recycling and waste transfer, incidently,) become less efficient, leading to more wagons on the road and higher costs. i accept i'm a special case, but I'm not unusual, there are thousands of people like me doing high mileages to keep industry and the economy going.

Some jobs in this modern world really do need everyday personal transport - I don't doubt that. The problem is that nearly everyone thinks that they are a special case when plainly they are not.

We have one or two like this where I work, when I make a comment (deliberately of course, just can't help it), about petrol being far too cheap, because of global warming etc - you can see the total incomprehension on their faces - they just don't get it; followed by " I couldn't live without my car; how would I get to work; pay the mortgage; how would I pick up the kids; do my shopping? etc".

It ought to be funny; but these are 'educated people' most of them have degrees in engineering, marketing, sales etc. It's depressing to realise just how difficult it's going to be to get through to these thickos!

[Will]

Nonnie you are a bad person! Now if you are going to get a big fu*k off tv, get a Sony Bravia, they are ace ;)

Talking of big fu*k off tvs - where are they made? Almost certainly in a Chinese factory powered by coal, or oil fired electricity.

See it's not just burning all that petrol driving to work to get the money to buy the big fu*k off telly, but you are doubly guilty cos by buying it you adding another 10 gazillion tons of CO2 to the atmosphere!

Sony Bravias are the best though :mand:

[Will]

.........
p.s. Whats an SUV?

Sports Utility Vehicle = 4x4 type people carrier thingy.

[gremlin]

So how do you do shopping etc without a car then, cos you can't get on the bus with it round here! I grow quite a bit of our own vegs, have chickens but still need to shop which on public transport is impossible due to having to walk nearly a mile to the bus stop. The buses get cancelled quite regularly so I could get to the shops maybe but can't necessarily get home. Drive 5 miles to the nearest town using the market and local shops, or bus 34 miles to get to the same town, decisions decisions! Our nearest shop is two miles away which due to my physical incapablities I can't walk to.
People have to work to pay their mortgages unless one has a private income from daddies shares, unfortunately not all of us have that option. It would be lovely to not have to go to work but that's life. We have no work at the moment our jobs cancelled so we've been trying to get anything up here to get us through to the new year.
Today an old customer rang asking for us to work for her in London, according to Will's philosophy we should turn it down because we would be commuting silly miles, but we if we do we can't put oil in the tank for the central heating or buy presents for my grand daughter. Sorry but I don't fancy being frozen and I couldn't bear to not buy Louise presents. Moral high ground is great if it isn't built on quick sand.

[Will]

This isn't about the moral high ground.

This thread started with complaints that the price of petrol is too high, I believe that it is far too cheap considering its damaging effects and that it is a limited resource.

I believe that out attitude towards it needs to change - it should figure far higher in our considerations when choosing a job or where to live.

We should not whinge each time the price goes up, but as individuals find ways of becoming less dependent upon it. Don't waste it on commuting; school runs etc - keep it for having fun!

If I was in charge :-)) I'd increase the price of petrol as fast as possible and stop all new road building (keeping the ones we already have in good condition). People's attitudes will change over time but my experience suggests that unfortunately it'll be a slow painful process :-((

[Zimbo]

I see where you're coming from Will, but I strongly disagree with much of your reasoning. Unless you apply these restrictions on fuel by pricing it out of everyday use universally accross the entire world you're simply going to make us, as a nation, spectacularly uncompetitive economically in world markets. As a result our economy would suffer badly and we'd all be much worse off.
Stop road building, sure why not? But if you'd applied that policy at some point in the past, say in 1950, where would we be now? I grant we'd be far less dependant on the car, but the world has changed a lot since then and without our transport infrastructure (by which I mean roads) we'd all be backward, very poor peasants now in comparison to our European and American neighbours.
It's worth considering that the way our entire infrustructure is built up is very dependant on motorised, personal transport. We've invested heavily in new housing for instance, huge new estates built on the outskirts of towns and cities, remote from employment oportunities and services - we're expected to drive to do anything. Before we tax motoring too heavily we need to completely rethink our whole approach to housing, access to jobs and servicing, public transport and many other issues, and actually put a complete new infrastructure in place that allows us to leave our cars at home. Just raising tax on fuel won't have much impact on car use to the average motorist, we are far too dependant on our car to give it up and our current infrastructure simply won't allow us to do so.
Change and progress, are inevitable, and untill we have a viable alternative to petrol and diesel engines (and I am as much for cleaner, more sustainable technology as anyone else here) it's simply outrageous to heap more and more tax on those of us who NEED motorised transport.
There are certainly industries where fuel should be taxed more than it currently is - aviation springs to mind, flying the family to Florida for a long weekend of fun is environmentally unjustifiable - but we are, like it or not, dependant on the car in this country, it's not a luxuary.

[Mand]

Yeah alright then. I'll wait for the sales because then I'll feel less guilty at having destroyed the environment whilst saving hundreds of pounds!

Do they come with plasticine bunnies or do I have to make my own?

Apparently they are going cheap on Amazon. I should know, I have had to take delivery of two of them for my boss' new house.

Two tellys and he drives a Porsche..... we should shoot him. Actually, I think we should shoot him anyway. :chuckle:

[Mand]

Talking of big fu*k off tvs - where are they made? Almost certainly in a Chinese factory powered by coal, or oil fired electricity.

See it's not just burning all that petrol driving to work to get the money to buy the big fu*k off telly, but you are doubly guilty cos by buying it you adding another 10 gazillion tons of CO2 to the atmosphere!

Sony Bravias are the best though :mand:


Oh you won't make me feel guilty, I went around the house last night and switched on ALL the lights just make a point! I pay the bill so therefore I can!!

I ride a 50cc scooter to work so I only use a teaspoon of petrol a month. I also have a top box on it and have done most of my Christmas shopping on it. It did look a bit "Bikes of Burden" though!

[Mand]

Don't know what they were smoking when they came up with that ad!

Kippers? Just a thought.....

[Will]

I see where you're coming from Will, but I strongly disagree with much of your reasoning. Unless you apply these restrictions on fuel by pricing it out of everyday use universally accross the entire world you're simply going to make us, as a nation, spectacularly uncompetitive economically in world markets. As a result our economy would suffer badly and we'd all be much worse off.
Stop road building, sure why not? But if you'd applied that policy at some point in the past, say in 1950, where would we be now? I grant we'd be far less dependant on the car, but the world has changed a lot since then and without our transport infrastructure (by which I mean roads) we'd all be backward, very poor peasants now in comparison to our European and American neighbours.
It's worth considering that the way our entire infrustructure is built up is very dependant on motorised, personal transport. We've invested heavily in new housing for instance, huge new estates built on the outskirts of towns and cities, remote from employment oportunities and services - we're expected to drive to do anything. Before we tax motoring too heavily we need to completely rethink our whole approach to housing, access to jobs and servicing, public transport and many other issues, and actually put a complete new infrastructure in place that allows us to leave our cars at home. Just raising tax on fuel won't have much impact on car use to the average motorist, we are far too dependant on our car to give it up and our current infrastructure simply won't allow us to do so.
Change and progress, are inevitable, and untill we have a viable alternative to petrol and diesel engines (and I am as much for cleaner, more sustainable technology as anyone else here) it's simply outrageous to heap more and more tax on those of us who NEED motorised transport.
There are certainly industries where fuel should be taxed more than it currently is - aviation springs to mind, flying the family to Florida for a long weekend of fun is environmentally unjustifiable - but we are, like it or not, dependant on the car in this country, it's not a luxuary.


I can see from this that you are a true addict :biggrin:

Why do we always assume that chasing economic growth and personal wealth takes priority over destroying the planet - short sighted or what?

We shouldn't sit around and wait for someone else to solve the problem by coming up with alternative green fuels - because it may well not happen soon enough; this type of thinking is a cop-out.

Yes we have become dependent on the car! Stupid wasn't it? What I have been suggesting is that much of our car use is due to addiction NOT genuine necessity, our brains just need a little re-calibration - but like all addictions one has to admit to it first!


P.S. This is far more fun than discussing tail-chops :biggrin:
P.P.S Will tail chops be possible with the new style Monster?

[Will]

Oh you won't make me feel guilty, I went around the house last night and switched on ALL the lights just make a point! I pay the bill so therefore I can!!

I ride a 50cc scooter to work so I only use a teaspoon of petrol a month. I also have a top box on it and have done most of my Christmas shopping on it. It did look a bit "Bikes of Burden" though!

Yeah, but think of all those poor cute little Chinese babies and children being choked by the horrid fumes pouring out of their factories - caused by our perverse desire for cheap products. :biggrin:

[Mand]

Yeah, but think of all those poor cute little Chinese babies and children being choked by the horrid fumes pouring out of their factories - caused by our perverse desire for cheap products. :biggrin:

Nah..... that won't make me feel guilty. I am a hard bitch! :chuckle:

[JerryXt]

Yeah, but think of all those poor cute little Chinese babies and children being choked by the horrid fumes pouring out of their factories - caused by our perverse desire for cheap products. :biggrin:

I'm a contractor...

It's worth considering that the way our entire infrustructure is built up is very dependant on motorised, personal transport. We've invested heavily in new housing for instance, huge new estates built on the outskirts of towns and cities, remote from employment oportunities and services - we're expected to drive to do anything. Before we tax motoring too heavily we need to completely rethink our whole approach to housing, access to jobs and servicing, public transport and many other issues, and actually put a complete new infrastructure in place that allows us to leave our cars at home.

Yay! That's my point entirely!

There are always going to be people who need free movement, but that's not the case for, what, 40% of the population? It's because they are living in one place and are travelling to another to work in an office that causes traffic jams and just increases consumption. It's just not sustainable and eventually something has to give.

[mad_turnips]

i think there is always a balance i live and work in the portsmouth bout 25 min walk to the office which i do almost everyday its a 10 min ride which i have done a few time when its needed ( late or need to get back quickly for second job ) but as am ( almost) and architect i have to visit site around alot of the country as do the rest of the office there is no way round actaully going to the meetings or seeing exactly what is being done throughout the job but i think that is an aceptable ... still think if the yanks sorted themselves out we would have to worry less

[gremlin]

We were discussing this thread with a mate yesterday. His daughter is at the UEA (university) which is the other side of the city. There is no bus to get her there without three changes. Bearing in mind the size of the campus and the size of the science park and hospital in close proximity, one would have though they would run buses from points all the way round the city but they don't. The old hospital was in the centre of the city within easy reach of everyone. The new one is 2 miles out which means lots of people now have to go by car who could bus before. Bad planning and cutting bus routes due to lack of funding is doing more damage.
Mind you if this lot carry on building there won't be any countryside. I haven't quite worked out their strategy, they tell farmers to take in set aside because we need more food and in the next breath say green belt is fair game for housing. How do you grow more crops if your land is under concrete?
The next village to us had had another 400 plus houses built but the doctors surgery and school are still the same size and the bus service is hit and miss. Oh and to control the excess traffic the builder was told to put in a mini roundabout at the junction to our village, filling in a pond in the process. :dunce: They also built a new Co op even though there was a shop and post office about three hundred yards away. No doubt the post office will close next. It's all a total mess.
There is talk of even more housing around us. The plan is to join our nearest town and the next two villages which will then join Norwich. Then to put a huge new ring road around the northern side of the city which will then make an excuse for more housing there too. Yes they have put park and rides around the southern side which are good but you still have to drive to them , yes it saves cars going into the city but it's only useful if you work in the centre and only if you do certain hours, because they are closed and locked at 6.30 I think, or it may be 7. If you do shift work or work the other side you have to take the car. Those on low incomes which most people are around here are hit hardest when fuel goes up because there is no choice but to use a car.:mad:

[Will]

Nah..... that won't make me feel guilty. I am a hard bitch! :chuckle:

Bug*er - what's it going to take? :banghead:

[Mand]

Bug*er - what's it going to take? :banghead:

Dunno, I suggest you try harder! :D and whilst you do... I am going to switch on all my kitchen appliances at the same time!

[Zimbo]

I am going to switch on all my appliances at the same time!

Careful Mand, we don't want any accidents now . . . .

[Zimbo]

P.S. This is far more fun than discussing tail-chops :biggrin:


One point I can completely agree with you on! :chuckle:

I've about run out of arguments now, except to say your points are all quite valid, it's just that I object to being hit in the wallet just because I'm an easy target, whilst other projects that would bring far greater environmental benefits are ignored because they're a bit more difficult or politically sensitive. We need a complete new approach all round to make any appreciable difference, not jut the easy bit (taxing me more).

[Nickj]

We shouldn't sit around and wait for someone else to solve the problem by coming up with alternative green fuels - because it may well not happen soon enough; this type of thinking is a cop-out.
Tonights projects:
#1 Finish an e-learning module, only 40 images to process and label :worried:
#2 Experiment with the various bottles we have left over from the past and devise a new fuel mix, I have great hopes of the potcheen which is fairly spirit rich :booze: I hope I am not too vigorous in my pusuit of world salvation and end up :toilet: or :drunk:
#3 Knock up a presentation on the implications of data sharing in the NHS in a pre RBAS capable environment referencing the data protection act (section 10) and the Human Rights Act. Better be before #2 as it's gibberish to start with and won't get better!!

[Nickj]

P.P.S Will tail chops be possible with the new style Monster?

Hmmm looks a :cens: mess to start with so I'd figure any little help it can be given has to be a good thing LOL Not overly enamured of the new variation

[Will]

One point I can completely agree with you on! :chuckle:

I've about run out of arguments now,......................


So have I, so unless someone gets a :idea: then I think that this thread has come to a natural end - there's just that one troublemaker, Mand, to deal with. :D

[Zimbo]

I'll have a go at dealing with her, I reckon I can handle her . . . .

(maybe)

[barbican]

So have I, so unless someone gets a :idea: then I think that this thread has come to a natural end - there's just that one troublemaker, Mand, to deal with. :D


OK so thats the same problem as kyoto bhali etc - earnest people define and trumpet the forthcomming end of the world - Others propose unpalletable and politicaly impossible resolutions - nobody can get traction in either direction (do nothing or end the period of ecconomic growth and affluence)
through a lack of impiricle evidence and so onwards we go.

The one thing neither of you guys mentioned and is allways left out of the political speaches is population growth and just how much this planet can sustain. None of the issues we face today would be a problem with smaller usage, and who knows what the eventual alternatives will be and what problems will be associated with those solutions, and what size of population will make them untenable over time

There thats the most horrible slant I could think of to encourage you to continue an enjoyable thead.............

[gremlin]

Cheers mate! What we need is a good old fashioned plague to thin a few out. You only have to look at this country, green belt is going to be used up to house people, that's the loss of huge numder of trees and other greenery which could help save the planet. As for palm oil being a green fuel, that's a joke, when the lungs of the planet are being ripped out to provide growing space for it. Perhaps the Chinese have the right idea by limiting each couple to two children. And I'm going to be really naughty and say that perhaps if the Catholic church got into the twentieth century and promoted contraception it would also help just a tad.

[mad_turnips]

singing to NOFX "coz theres never going to be enought space so Eat the Meek savour the taste"

[Mand]

I'll have a go at dealing with her, I reckon I can handle her . . . .

(maybe)

Is that right? :p

And it would be cheating if you use the power of the 'Tiramisu'.

[Nonnie]

And I'm going to be really naughty and say that perhaps if the Catholic church got into the twentieth century and promoted contraception it would also help just a tad.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph, will you be listening to that now?

Nonnie (the catholic, 3 kids, undecided whether the O'Lunacy line should be allowed to continue but me mammy was one of 11 so I really ought to)

[mad_turnips]

"every sperm is sacred every sperm is great if a sperm is wasted god gets quite irrate"

[gremlin]

I love that film! Having been sent to a convent school I've got a real problem with the church in general. It really hacked me off when the richest organisation in the world was prepared the last few pence from the poorest with the threat of eternal damnation if they didn't cough up. I know I'm probably out of order on this but every area where the church has got involved has caused problems, you only have to look at Africa where the missionaries got a toe hold. If safe sex had been advocated they wouldn't have too many mouths to feed nor would they have the terrible numbers of AIDS victims. This world can't cope with the number of people it has to provide for, the demands on resources is huge. Looking at how the Amazon rainforest is being grubbed out to provide land to feed people and provide exotic timber for the haves really gets me jumping up and down, especially when there are so many plants that could provide beneficial medicines being lost. If so much land is going to be taken up to provide biofuel and housing where is there going to be land for food. Hydroponics could be used for food crops but the system isn't very pretty when set up so people won't want hydroponic plants in their back yards, they already moan about polytunnels! I'm getting off my soap box now!

[Zimbo]

Is that right? :p

And it would be cheating if you use the power of the 'Tiramisu'.

Reckon it's worth a go, even if you have just disallowed my most powerful weapon :)

I might not actually win, but I'd probably enjoy it . . . . ;)