handling in slow corners

[mattjhall2003]

Just wondering. Does anyone else have truoble steering through slow, tight bends and such, or is just me? :mad:

[Scotty]

ahh slow cornering is compleatly different to faster cornering techniquwe wise
errm at real slow speeds u turn stuff you actually stear
where as at high speeds you couter stear to make the bike fall into the corner

the best exampe of that is the ciacain (the what ?) to rapidly change direction you steaer wrongly if you like

hummmm some advice practice more thers no substitute for experiance as they say

some other things they say is a little knowledge is dangerouse
id do more research rather than listen to my bs

[A Yerbury]

what do you mean by trouble? girl trouble? over/understeer? wobbly back /front or just uncertain? how long have you been riding? a lot of it is just confidence and finding out what you and your bike are comfortable doing.

[paul620sie]

Just wondering. Does anyone else have truoble steering through slow, tight bends and such, or is just me? :mad:

me too, especially righthand ones (i hate mini roundabouts) .... i think its related to that bl==dy U turn i hated doing for the test.

[Chappers]

I used to hate slow manourvering ie turning right at a mini-roundabout, mega tight bends on country roads, tiny junctions etc but since my rear shock was adjusted properly and my new headrace bearings put on I'm starting to enjoy slow manouvers; just slip the clutch and drag the rear brake should I feel a tad uneasy.

I think it was also due to lack of confidence too :o

I used to think that you countersteared on all bends/turns - slow or fast but have noticed that I'm comfortable with:-
stearing the bike on slower bends/turns
counter stearing on the faster bends/turns

[mattjhall2003]

I particularly hate roundabouts, but I have only been riding since december '04. I gave up trying to steer rather than lean as the monster seems to have very little in the way of a steering lock. But of course, leaning at low speed is not for people who are worried about dropping the bike. Perhaps I should consult Master Yoda! :confused:

[mattjhall2003]

me too, especially righthand ones (i hate mini roundabouts) .... i think its related to that bl==dy U turn i hated doing for the test.

I to sucked at u turns on test and would not dream of trying on the monster! :eek:

[steviej]

You can't beat practice.............................


............................get down to a local (deserted) supermarket car park and PRACTISE!!!!
It's all about clutch control for slow stuff. And you could apply a little pressure to the rear brake* whilst you get used to it!! ;)





*ONLY ON THE SLOW SLOW STUFF MIND YOU!! :eek:

[mattjhall2003]

Thanx to everyone who gave tips.

Matt.

Whatever happens, Termi's sound great! :twisted:

[rxtim]

You can't beat practice.............................
............................get down to a local (deserted) supermarket car park and PRACTISE!!!!
It's all about clutch control for slow stuff. And you could apply a little pressure to the rear brake* whilst you get used to it!! ;)
*ONLY ON THE SLOW SLOW STUFF MIND YOU!! :eek:
Exactly, all about clutch control, clutch will control the speed, hold throttle steady until you're out of the corner. Trailing the rear back helps since it will act to steady the bike. And remember to try and look where you want to go.

One of my friends wrote a good piece on this sort of thing, I'll post it later.

[rxtim]

Lots of useful stuff here from an instructor

Slow speed riding is possibly the trickiest type of riding you will do. The key to slow speed riding is of course balance. Balance that is comprimised if you 'trail a foot'.

But there is no need to fear slow speed riding if you know the secret to keeping the balance of your bike.

Imagine that you are a very stable thing. You are a triangle. An equalateral one at that. Perfectly balanced and very stable
.
You need to use three things in your balance triangle. The 3 sides of your balance triangle are:
Clutch.
Throttle.
REAR Brake.

Take one away and your balance pyramid will fall down. used together you will be able to turn any motorcycle at full lock in either direction at walking pace or even less!

Your lesson will begin assuming you are on a bike in a quiet private area with plenty of space.

Engage first gear and move off in a straight line. Get settled and balanced. Sit quite far forward but remain comfortable and don't cramp yourself. Do not cover your front brake. If I see your hand on that front brake, even one little finger, at any time, then you shall be spanked. NO FRONT BRAKE AT ALL!

Staying in first gear and reaching a steady slow speed of say 8mph. We are going to get you familiar with the feel of the bike at slow speed in a straight line before we do any turns. Using the rear brake only slow the bike down steadily. The engine revs will drop and the bike is now going to stall. Pull the clutch in until the engine revs rise again. You will slow even quicker as there is nothing pulling you forward and you still are braking. Release the rear brake and slowly let out the clutch. The engine revs will drop again and you will move forward. Once you get the hang of this you can balance the bike at a very slow speed while keeping the revs comfortably high (but not screaming the knackers off the thing and burning the clutch out). The name of this game is 'not putting your foot down'. Don't worry if you do though. It is all part of the learning process. Mr X is going to walk next to you. You have to match his pace. he can speed up and slow right down. he can even stop. If he stops you have to stop using the rear brake only and you must not stall the bike ok?

So now you can ride alongside Mr X while he walks. He can speed up and slow down his walking pace and you can match him without too much difficulty. Now you are ready to turn circles.

[rxtim]

The turn can be as large as you like within reason. Complete a full circle at a steady speed in first gear. Now turn the other way and do the same. Do a few lazy loopy figure of eights. Now do full circles, any direction you want. Get comfortable turning at a steady slow speed then slowly decrease the size of your turning circle. As the size of the circle slowly decreases you will find your speed will decrease. As speed decreases then engine revs will decrease. This isn't particularly good as if the engine gets too slow it will get 'chunky' on you and start chugging, leading to a stall, a loss of balance and a fall or a foot down. Which is a bit crap.

So as your circle and speed decreases you will need to keep the revs up to maintain engine speed. To do this gently slip the clutch, holding the throttle as constant as you can. Unless you are very familiar with the bite point of the clutch you will probably find that your speed will rise and drop. Scrub off speed and keep your balance easily by applying the rear brake (gently). The reason we use the rear brake in slow speed turning is because it does not dip the front of the bike an change the steering. You have enough to be doing with the steering without compounding problems and banging on the brakes.
the rear brake will slow you gently without any violent direction change or pitching of the bike forcing a balance change.

All this time (as with any maneuver on a motorcycle) you need to be looking at where you are going. In your case you are going around in a circle so look towards the centre of that circle. It is good practice to place a cone as the centre point of your circle that you are riding around to help this. It can be any type of cone. A traffic cone is good but an ice cream cone would do. Keep your chin up and do not look at the clocks. There is nothing directly in front of you that the clocks display that is of the slightest help when you are riding at walking pace. Same rules apply with the clocks as does the front brake. Spanky time!

Too tight and the bike 'dropping' into the circle? No problem. Add a few more revs.
Going to wide and too fast? Slow using the rear brake.
Engine labouring and about to stall? Ease the clucth in and give it a weeny bit more power.
Rememeber! No front brake at all and no clock watching, or it is spank time

Soon you will find that you can turn on full lock at walking speed in either direction!


Once you have this in the bag (and it doesn't take long) you will hold no fear of u-turns or any other type of slow speed maneuver.

And remember the three sides of the triangle and NO FRONT BRAKE!

[rxtim]

CORNERS
......... as a rule, if you are closing up on a corner, and the apex remains stationary, this is telling you that it is a tightish corner, if the apex is "moving"away this tells you that this is a faster curve/turn
To make rapid smooth progress try this: Left hand turn/curve, you should be sitting just inside the white center line, speed scrubbed off, correct gear, and follow the white line thru the corner, back in to the center of the lane again, if anything comes toward you, you have retained the ability to adjust your position AWAY from the white line, if you did it by the apex method, the bike is now heading for the other side the road regardless, and will be almost impossible to recover if that was required, the opposite applies for right handers, where you would sit virtually in the gutter, braking, gears etc, and following the kerb line thru and ending back in the center of the lane.
OBSERVATION
........... read the road, see what it is telling you, if you cant see the road, but can see a row of lamposts/telegraph poles, these will tell you which way the road is going, even tho it is out of your sight, you can fly past your mates with SOME confidence cos they havent worked out where the road is gonna go until they're on it, by then your on the gas and gone.
if you can see the road ahead is a series of left/right curves, straight line them, which again is faster, and safer as again you are not upsetting the bikes "attitude", you almost have to ignore the road markings( ONLY WHEN SAFE TO DO SO ), and use the roads "natural" route
BRIDGES
...if on the approach to a bridge you can see scrape/dig marks in the road, these are where cars/bikes have LANDED using their sumo as a skid plate, in other words BACK OFF its hump backed, and will be the same the other side, and may potentially have oil from a vehicle whos sump did not survive!!
OVERTAKING
...........Think about this, if the road is curving left, you are risking yopur neck to keep bobbing up the outside to see if there is a pass on, move right to the kerb and et voila!! you now have clear view of road,and can now make your pass, if its a right curve, stay centre of lane, dro[p back a little to improve view and make your pass.....
BRAKING
.........back to the old days if you dont know the roads, get all your braking over with BEFORE you make the turn, then drive thru it, the bike mags talk about sports bikes that can brake on the lean /turn, good if you KNOW the road, potentially disastrous if you dont, beacause you are upsetting the bikes "attitude" on the road, and unecessarily loading/unloading the brakes and suspension....the rule is slowish in and fast out, and using a minimum of 75% front brake, 25% rear.
ROUNDABOUTS
......common sense time here, if there is a garage on a roundabout, there will nearly always be some kind of fuel spillages on the surface from where folk "top off", the first place it gets centifugally removed is the first roundabout/turn you make, take it easy on these ones
The whole point of this potted guide is "ride to arrive"it will not be the very fastest way A to B, but you have a MUCH higher survival rate, especially on roads you dont know.........if you combine this with roads you DO know, then you can actually end up going quicker...........
I know a lot of this may appear common sense, but by adopting it as a "system" will make your ride smoother and more progressive, and not necessarily slower either, as you may find bits of this will make you quicker in places where you were a little slower........................ Grin Grin
I await my flaming............... Wink

[rxtim]

in a left hander you should (as you say) approach from the best vantage point for view, which on a fairly open corner would be at the white line in the centre of the road (they don't like offsiding any more) if the corner is tight or blind, you should move away from the white line an appropriate distance to allow for numpties coming the other way and cutting the corner - now this is where we differ, I was taught to follow the white line until you would naturally turn in, then turn in across the lane and exit on the left curb, not the centre line. What this does for you is mean that you are at maximum tight cornering but ending up in a safe position from oncoming traffic, meaning that you can easily deviate from your chosen "tight" line if there is a hazard in the nearside. Interestingly, exiting left on a left hander puts you in the perfect position to enter the following right hander, as this is mostly the case on the roads, a left is usually (but not always) followed by a right and vice versa - otherwise we'd end up going round in circles - this is an amazingly smooth way to ride a set of unknown bends and combined with vanishing point explains a bit why plod riders are fast and smooth, even in unfamiliar territory

for a right hander you approach from the gutter and turn in to exit on the white line - if there is anything coming you can relax your tight line to a position of safety further into your lane

a few other general rules of thumb

under normal straight road, no oncoming traffic conditions take up a position just left of the white line
if a single CAR approaches drift to the centre of your lane, no need to be extreme
if a larger vehicle or multiple cars approach, move to the far left - this gives minimum wind disturbance from large vehicles and allows the oncoming traffic which is following an earlier chance to see you
this goes for stationary traffice on the opposite side of the road as well, as far left as you can
try not to meet large vehicles coming in the opposite direction on corners
if overtaking stationary traffic, get as far to the right (wrong side of the road as possible) and pass slowly, this gives you maximum safety from numpties doing u turns
if there is oncoming traffic and you are filtering, watch for the obvious things, heads turning, wheels turning brake lights going off etc., pass slowly and be ready to use the pot noodle horn
use cross views as soon as you can, if you get a crossroad or minor road joining sign take a good look out that way, you can often see over hedges etc from this distance and get a fair warning of traffic joining your road
use cross views through gaps in hedges and buildings as well
when overtaking, try never to be the meat in the sandwich
make overtakes as smooth as possible, follow at a safe distance and accelerate into an overtake position when it looks like it might be on then just use the momentum to carry you past, if it's not on drop back - and move around to get better views up the nearside especiallly, don't follow up someone's chuff for miles then gas it past at the first opportunity
watch for changes in road surface
get to the nearside over blind crests
move out away from junctions but split hazards where necessary - like oncoming traffic vs side road
make eye contact with traffic waiting to emerge
use shoulder checks everywhere in town, and when leaving 30 limits as scooter boys can slip up on either side just as you are nailing it to NSL
always have an escape plan when stopping, angle the bike a bit and don't select neutral until you have 2 stationary vehicles behind you, keep one eye on the mirrors at all times when stopped and be ready to go, even if your escape plan is up the inside or onto a (low) curb
when completing an overtake, don't drift in if there is oncoming traffic - they don't like it up 'em and prefer to see the side of your bike not the front, so positively turn in so they are not surprised

[DesmoDog]

Crikey! Well I agree it's all down to confidence - Following Scotty into a tight (near 90) bend at slow speed was an experience. I'm all drag on the back brake and steering. Scotty just sort of falls to whatever side he going and suddenly the bike is facing in the direction he wants to go - and I mean that in a WOW, wish I could do that sort of way. It's all about getting comfortable with the bike. Oh, and you're right - the steering lock is crap, but as I said - there are ways and means.

[paul620sie]

Crikey! Well I agree it's all down to confidence.

I agree, my confidence increased signifiacntly after the first Monster track day. Using the "If other people can do it on standard bikes then so can I" attitude my corning speeds and lean improved noticably over the day.

Going on ride outs with more experienced riders has had the same effect for me too.

[Julie]

You can read and read and read up about these types of things at the end of the day you just need to get out and ride your bike. I think it was said before - but get your self along to an industrial estate after working hours and just practice. All the talk in the world wont make you better - but riding the bike will.

[DesmoDog]

Well I don't know, it depends what you're talking about. Take French. If you talk a lot then you get better.

[Fosse Foxfight]

To be frank out of all the bikes I've ridden and thats mostly British, German and Italian and f**king Harleys, the Ducati ranks as the s**test for slow handling and turning, having exactly the same turning circle as country sized super tanker. However that said I maintain that the front suspension on stock Monsters is not ideal for everyday roads and riding and is set up poorly. The second best mod you can do to your Monster is flat side carbs....but the best mod is to either fit the Racetech fork kit or send your forks to Maxton and get them resprung, valved and set up for your riding style and roads used. Racetech kit if you fit it yourself will set you back £208 delivered to your door. Whereas Maxton will cost you about the same plus postage on a set of loose forks, but they very often recommend new seals as well, so allow about £300. If youre confident with spanners and have some engineering skills you can do the Racetech kit yourself, if not then send em to Maxton. The improvement to the front end is as noticeable as the flat side carbs and makes the bike eminently more useable in everyday use. You'll also never need to buy a steering damper :cool:
As far as riding technique goes, as previously mentioned positive right way steering works from still to about 20mph then counter steer upto about 120 then things change quite radically. That said the counter steer is only the initial aid in cornering as it intiates the lean aided by your bodies own technique, either touring style or racing knee out/bum shift. Once the cornering is started on say a long sweepr then you will find that you actually steer correctly or the weight is biased toward correct steering. Above the 120mph mark the initial is initiated with correct and the cornering maintained with countersteer all the way thru the bend.
As J&R said you can get a nice open space and reassure yourself in your head of some basic characteristics of the way you ride, but most riders will have a favourite stretch of road, usually a nice stretch of sweepy quiet A road on which they will perfect their techniques, roadcraft etc. This is the best way you can hone your skills....actually go out to practice your skills, just the same way as a musician or sportsman would...practice makes perfect!!

ta ra

[DesmoDog]

or buy a hornet

[steviej]

ARAF

Does it stand for: As Rough As F**k..........................

:eek: :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :p

[Julie]

Does it stand for: As Rough As F**k..........................

:eek: :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :p


NOPE ................

[steviej]

Does it stand for: As Rough As F**k..........................
NOPE ................

What about: Arabian Racing Association of Florida :p

[The Kevlar Kid]

ARAF (pronounced Arav) is Welsh for Slow....... :D

[steviej]

Or Australian Rural & Agricultural Finance :confused:

[A Yerbury]

I am struggling whilst trying to brush the back of my teeth? is there a special technique I should employ?

[Fosse Foxfight]

I am struggling whilst trying to brush the back of my teeth? is there a special technique I should employ?
You can adopt 1 of 3 routes my dear Yerbera.
1. Deploy your wit and repartee at the Bulldog Bash, and thus find yourself in the happy although somewhat painful position of no longer requiring dental brushing.
2. Have a homosexual relationship with a Dyno Rod employee....although you may be lucky and find a female operative.
3. Flip top head was an old solution tho, I recall it was just a flippant advert for summat or other.

hth

ta ra

[A Yerbury]

1.my fists are as quick as my wit (queensbury etc etc) espescially as they are (mostly)old fat c unts.
2.will she be able to fix my carbs at the same time?
3.My lid is flippable but alas not in that way, as you say...marketing BS.

thanks for your speedy reply though!

Regards.
AY.xxx

[A Yerbury]

the rear brake is almost useless on monsters, at speed if you hit this to work you WILL skid (at the end of the day thats a bad thing) although I made it look quite cool and lived to cry another day.

[CraigMac]

Alex,
Are you in some kind of trouble with these "Bulldog types", I may be able to offer some assistance. A passing aquaintance, Mike Huntsniff, is a member of the local chapter of the "Slaves"....You may remember him posting on here....advising that young chap, Brent.
I could have a word with him, via an intermediary...It might just help!!!

Regards

[A Yerbury]

I just mention the name Bob "scary eyes" Dixon and they fall on their knees, wail a bit and marry me off to the vilage elders daugher? ...thanks for your concern though, in fact Currys may be around later this week in regard to a ceratain plasma screen and home cinema set up (alas no popcorn hurling "youth" or chatterbox types but hey...) I'll drop you a PM.

sincitycerly.
Alex.x