Benefits of radial master cylinders?

[marchesini]

With my bike rebuilding gathering momentum and taking the opportunity to 'do it all at once', my thoughts have turned towards Radial brake & clutch master cylinders - in particular the brembo race versions. Now, I am attracted to them like "P Diddy to a Bentley" for the bling factor but I would venture that they have another purpose other than looking swell.

So, bearing in mind that the S4R forks are being replaced by some Ohlins complete with Brembo radial calipers:

1. What benefits are to be gained?

2. Would it be false economy to use the standard master cylinders with the new set-up or are the Brembo Race master cylinders "keeping it in the family" so to speak.

3. Are other brands better/ worse or just different i.e Disciatti or Magura?

4. What do the different diameters mean i.e. PR19x20, 19x18, 16x18?

5. Will the clutch lever be harder to pull than stock - thinking of uprating the clutch slave cylinder to the Spareshack evoluzione item at the same time?

By the way, I have rather small hands so if they are not as adjustable as the stock levers, they would not be a good thing. Thanks for any enlightening thoughts that travel in my direction.

Best regards

simon

[Pedro]

1. What benefits are to be gained?
More direct pressure on the cylinder, not through 90 degrees like stock item, less flex, more feel. Also have good adjustment for reach

2. Would it be false economy to use the standard master cylinders with the new set-up or are the Brembo Race master cylinders "keeping it in the family" so to speak.
Probably not, but hey, while the sunshines....

3. Are other brands better/ worse or just different i.e Disciatti or Magura?
Magura are v nice!

4. What do the different diameters mean i.e. PR19x20, 19x18, 16x18?
Bore & Stroke measurements

5. Will the clutch lever be harder to pull than stock - thinking of uprating the clutch slave cylinder to the Spareshack evoluzione item at the same time?
In theory you could change the bore diameter to reduce lever pressure

Just my two penneth...!

Ped

[Albie]

I was going to answer but wanted to check whether im talking tosh. I got all my thoughts right so my answers the same as Mastermind Ped's. Well done that man. :D

[marchesini]

3. Are other brands better/ worse or just different i.e Disciatti or Magura?
Magura are v nice!

Any ideas on costs / suppliers? Saw some gold Maguras on Jason's bling S4R and they did look pretty - would be an ideal match to my 3 sovereign rings and capped teeth.


4. What do the different diameters mean i.e. PR19x20, 19x18, 16x18?
Bore & Stroke measurements

Which means what exactly? What would be the recommended dosage for an S4R - want to retain the feel and not for the brakes to become too on/off or grabby.


5. Will the clutch lever be harder to pull than stock - thinking of uprating the clutch slave cylinder to the Spareshack evoluzione item at the same time?
In theory you could change the bore diameter to reduce lever pressure

So in theory, I wouldn't need (is any of this actually needed?) to change the clutch slave cylinder?

Thanks for the techy help in a non-techy answer sort of way (and thanks Albie for thinking of the answers - my Jedi mind training has been a little lacking of late, been busy see.)

Best regards all

simon

[Pedro]

Gave you a slight bum steer on the numbers - when it's listed as 19x18 etc, it means the diameter of the bore of the cylinder x the length from the pivot point to the point that acts on the cylinder - have a look at www.redracingparts.com it explains it properly.

Changing either the bore or the length from the pivot would change the amount of lever pressure but I'm not sure what would work on your S4R.

[NattyBoy]

If your going for it remember youll have to think about mounting the mirrors. As Ped explained the measurements are the bore and stroke.

I would recommend the 19xs18 I run as this gives the best overall combination IMO (a lot of the racers run 19x18 including hodgson)...lots of feel. Plenty of adjustment (probably more than the standard levers) so no worries there. Then youve got to choose between cast and billet. They only do the clutch in billet so knowing what a tart you are mate (man after my own heart :lol: ) youll probably want billet to match ! And dont forget youll need an inline pressure switch for the brake light.

Couldnt believe the difference when I fitted this...but then again I did chuck on brembo fully floating discs and billet calipers at the same time so couldnt tell you what difference the lever alone made (probably loads :p ).

I can confirm they work well on S4R's...Kevb runs one, but you cant ask him about it coz hes getting shot at in Iraq.. :eek:

http://ducatisportingclub.com/xmb/viewthread.php?action=attachment&tid=16979&pid=151681

Cheers
Nat

[spm23]

I have done the same with my S4R, mostly for cosmetic reasons, the standard setup performs well, but each to his own. Radial calipers are less likely to flex (at the mounting bolts) when braking hard. Standard side mount calipers have a tendency to move in the direction of the disk, something which is prevented if they are bolted top and bottom. Radial master's provide greater braking power and improved feel. All important when you are racing I guess but all racing advancements inevitably filted down to main stream.

Replacing the clutch slave cylinder will make for more comfortable stop/start riding, as all Ducati's are notorious wrist rooters.

I have Ohlins R&T with JHP radial mounts, Brembo Monoblocks and Magura radial master cylinders.

Magura are supplied by Venhill http://www.venhill.co.uk/ in Dorking, masters are about £240 each, and the good thing about there masters is that they have a mirror mount, something which Brembo don't do (in billet)

I intitally had Brembo's, I still think the brown billet cylinders are the best looking around and are available for brake/clutch (check out yoyodyne for what is available http://www.yoyodyneti.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=147 ), but got so much grief with the supplier when I requested that the brake/clutch anodising colours be the same, I gave up. It was a case of take what you get given buddy.

[marchesini]

I intitally had Brembo's, I still think the brown billet cylinders are the best looking around and are available for brake/clutch (check out yoyodyne for what is available http://www.yoyodyneti.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=147 ), but got so much grief with the supplier when I requested that the brake/clutch anodising colours be the same, I gave up. It was a case of take what you get given buddy.

Thanks for all the replies guys and gals.

I am just pricing up the options at the moment and have a race Brembo MC on my track bike - I think I was told that the standard 996 items have a habit of giving up after repeated heavy braking - didn't want to disprove that theory so went for the upgrade - not that I needed any encouragement to spend more cash.

With the S4R, it seems that the mirror / brake light issue is worth bearing in mind. The Brembo's come with nothing - the brake light is easily sorted but the mirror mounting may prove to be a problem. The Discacciati MC's are also an option (as recommended by a few over on the DSC) as they also include a brake light with the option of mirror mounts. The magura's look very bling and also match each other - very important to have matching collar and cuffs or Trinny and Susannah will not be happy.

How did you find the difference in use between the brembos and the magura's? Why did you change them - cosmetic reasons? And, do you have the old brembo's kicking around in that shed of yours ;)

I would recommend the 19xs18 I run as this gives the best overall combination IMO (a lot of the racers run 19x18 including hodgson)...lots of feel. Plenty of adjustment (probably more than the standard levers) so no worries there. Then youve got to choose between cast and billet. They only do the clutch in billet so knowing what a tart you are mate (man after my own heart :lol: ) youll probably want billet to match ! And dont forget youll need an inline pressure switch for the brake light.

Why the huge price difference in the different Brembo items - is the billet item any different in feel than the aluminum version?

Also, on all the websites I have looked at, there doesn't seem to be a billet 19x18 brembo version available? Has this been discontinued? Links to the best places for Brembo stuff please.

Cheers all

simon

[spm23]

There are some mirror mounts advertised on that yoyodyne web site `for Brembo calipers but they are cast not billet. This was the best list of Brembo products that I could find on the web. The Magura and Brembo bodies are almost identical in appearance, in fact the UK supplier (Venhill) stated that the Brembo's are copies of Magura....though I don't know if that is true. I had initially ordered Brembo 10.5800.10 (clutch) and the X10.48.50 (brake) for my bike and asked that they be of the same anodise colour. One arrived before the other and one was silver, the other brown. I said that wasn't acceptable and asked to swap either to match but that request was just too much to expect. After more than a month of waiting for something to be sorted I canceled the order and went for the Magura, I never got to try the Brembo's, they went straight back to the supplier unused. I still have one older style cast radial 19x18 lying around.

But Magura also can have problems with the colouring of their products, there is (and will always be) differences when they are processed in batches, the bodies and leavers on mine are nicely matched but the mirror mounts are different batches and so there is a slight difference. Not sure as to why there is such a big difference between the various Brembo billet products, it could be the material used. The billet models are still made of alloy (or some variant), but CNC machined from a single block as opposed to being cast, which is why they more expensive.

[marchesini]

Thanks for all the help but saw my bike today for the first time in 5 months. Some decisions have to be made on the clip-ons front before deciding on the brembo or maguras as I still have not decided on what to go for. In the meantime, spm23, you have pm.

Cheers all

simon

[NattyBoy]

One note...if you go from Brembo be careful not to clout the lever forward (like I did when I squeezed past the bike and caught my trouser pocket on the lever). Theres an internal washer designed to break (for racing reasons - the same principal behind the weak point on a brake or clutch lever), and as brembo wont sell spares (liability issues), you have to send it to Brembo racing to be rebuilt and pressure tested (even though I only needed a washer worth about 5 pence and would probably have taken about 5 minutes to replace :eek: ).

Cheers
Nat

[spm23]

One issue I have with Magura radial master is that the levers have different profile that standard, so when you engage the clutch the lever presses the pass switch, flicking the light to high beam. Have had to rotate the whole electric assembly to avoid, which puts all the switches in awkward position.

[marchesini]

Decided on the Brembo IF I can source some mirror mounts. Priced up the Billet in both and I'm glad I was sitting down when I got the price of the 19x18 Radial Brake master - £170 for the cast and £1000 for the billet - solid gold I think (not a fan of smilies but I think in this case, it's appropriate :eek: :eek: :eek: ). They do a more (relatively) reasonably priced 19 x 16 but have 30 on back order which didn't bode well for a quick delivery. Besides, 19 x 18 is what I have on my 996 and cannot fault it so ...

Billet clutch (16 x 18) along with a cast 19 x 18 brake but I canna find the mirror mounts available in the UK. The interweb thingy has come up with nada on that front so any pointers on where to source the brembo mirror mounts? While we are on the subject of sources (and not of the soya or tomato kind), who are recommended on the brembo masters? Natty, got any hidden in that Aladdins cave of yours?

Cheers all

simon