PC vs Apple Mac..............

[Didge]

Just to revive the old argument again, partly for the sake of it, but mostly a little warning.
I was always a little suspicious about the Apple Mac, and I saw a programme on cable last night that confirmed it.
Basically, if one has a pc, they can be upgraded, and defective componants replaced* by the owner, after nothing more than a visit to one's local pc shop.
Apple Macs on the other hand, can only be repaired by a certified dealer. This is because, under the terms of the Mac dealership, componants like motherboards etc, etc, cannot be supplied to the customer. They HAVE to bring it in to the dealer for repair.
To me that's crap. So PD (I think it is who has a Mac), you can stick it. I'll stick with my home made pc which I can repair myself.

(* there is the odd un-upgradables. like old Tiny pcs etc.)

Now waiting for Apple Mac owners to try and give me a broadside of verbal, including the benefits of Macs, blah, blah, etc......10..9..8..7..6..5..4..3..2..1..........

[A Yerbury]

Didge dont believe everything you read in the daily mail or watch on cable!

[fatbloke]

ready for your broadside Didge









here go's











I changed from PC to mac and I prefer mac











thats it

[A Yerbury]

there






is





a






return key








problem








though

[DesmoDog]

Hmm have to take it to a licenced dealer, only mac parts - do I hear the ring of familarity. Of course I'm talking about Harleys and not Ducatis.

[Banshee]

The shark would win.... ;)

[SazzaG]

Ooh, you're lucky Rog is still on the **** is Bristol!

He's been a Mac engineer and consultant for the last 9 years, so I'm sure he can set the record straight. (She types on the gorgeous 17" widescreen titanium laptop..)

One (of the many advantages) of Macs though. They don't get viruses, and aren't susceptible to those dial-up scams. I don't know about the whole replacement parts thing, but I use both PCs and Macs regularly, and the Macs are so much easier to use.

But hey, that's just my opinion. It would be boring if we all liked the same things!

Saz

[spacemonkey]

One (of the many advantages) of Macs though. They don't get viruses, and aren't susceptible to those dial-up scams. I don't know about the whole replacement parts thing, but I use both PCs and Macs regularly, and the Macs are so much easier to use.
Saz

But isn't that just because of the software, and the fact that Macs only account for 3% of the pooter market so no self respecting, spotty oik sat in a bedroom in eastern europe could be arsed to write a virus for them? PCs run on Linux have all the advantages of Macs, but not the disadvantages that Didge mentions. And you can buy some very cool PC cases now, so Macs can't even claim a style advantage. Each to their own I say.

Oh, and don't forget, that Apple merely stole their OS from some young upstarts at IBM whose management couldn't see the future! Then Mr Gates stole that, and now he owns 25% of Apple.....

[Didge]

Thank you Space. You are indeed correct about the cases etc.
I've often wondered why I never see hardware for Macs anywhere. PC World (as a last resort of course), small computer shops and computer fairs, never have stuff for Macs that I've seen.
As one who likes to build and tinker with my own computers, I love the choice I have of Mainboards, graphics cards, sound cards, power packs, cases, games, programmes and all the other bits and bobs.
It seems to me, that to choose a Mac, one is extremely limited with choice of all the above and more.
To me, a good computer, is one that can be changed to suit one's requirements, as I've done to mine since I first built it.
A Mac would be totally useless to me for that reason alone.

Sorry, but PC's rule!!!!!!

[Rogerg]

oh crickey - here we go again

I could argue for days on both sides.

My preference, Mac

I think the testament is the Brand loyalty from Apple Users. ie you don't get many Mac users returning to the Windows platform by choice.

I tend to find that many people that slate Macs have never really used one. This is compounded by the Stat that in business the average shelf life of a Windows based desktop PC is now only 18 months whereas the Mac is 4 Years, so often you find that a user may be comparing 2 computers that may well be a few years apart.

Get the best tool for the job. If your needs are simple (ie web/ email, typing up the odd letter) - get a Windows box. likewise if you like rolling your sleaves up & replacing the odd componant than Apples are probably not for you (except the desktop/ tower models, G4s, & G5s).

However, if you have a more digital lifestyle, in terms of photography, music Video, DVD Authoring - give the Mac a try - it just works out of the box.

Regarding design - You'll all agree that Apple showed us that computers don't have to be beige boxes, but I still think they lead the way interms of design.


Space - you may wish to check your sources re the IBM & Mr Gates stats.

[Plum]

Have to say in three years of working in IT (from not being able to turning one on to Tea boy), my experience with mac equals seeing a colleauges G3. It was a fleeting glimps, but am also led to believe they very good for the digital lifestyle. None of our laptops at work are Macs, so i really have had no exsposure. However i would like to have one for a few hours to have really good look.

[Byron Kauffman]

Didge;
Why even worry about Mac users if you wont walk into a Mac store and give it a free try? Its like a HD rider writing "why would anyone ride a Monster" based on a single tv show. You dont seem to have first hand info to make a decision for or against the Mac.

I dont like computers at all but because I am in the art industry I need one just to open client files. We had early PCs at the agency and I used friend's PCs for a few years. I also had plenty of artist friends using Macs so I got to try both systems. At first I didnt care either way but Macs definately were setup in a more user friendly way and most art files I got were Mac so thats the way I went. Macs are more expensive and not as easy to walk into a store for add-ons but they sure have less garbage in the system. You could remove a program by simply dragging it to the trash, no need to "un install" as on PC. I still dont think ANY computer system was designed with real world people in mind. No function seems to equate with the old "By Hand" method. Drawing with a Mouse is like drawing with a brick, no relationship to the feel of a pencil. I just spent the last month creating several illustrations completely in the computer for the first time. Even with a Wacom drawing tablet I still think it is a evil machine and nowhere close to enjoyable like doing a real painting, but the Mac is better than Windows. They seem to be designed more for creative use. Anytime you see a design, music or film editing studio there are Macs in use, that has to say something. You wouldnt get a room full of "pain in the ass" creative types to use something that didnt work.
If all you want is the ability to run to the corner shop for a PC case with glass sides, gold cables and neon you should stick with a Windows system. PC are easier to mod, no arguement here. But go play with a Mac you might like it. Look around, there are plenty of web sites for people that custom build Mac cases too. I have had my case apart to see about getting the plastic cover chromed so I could then flame it. I was also looking for a 1950s vacuum cleaner so I could move the computer guts into it. But I still think of it like a toaster, as long as it works I dont want to waste time on it.

Now can we get back to Motorcycles on this list. The last few weeks this forum reads like the transcript for the Jerry Springer show.

[JMo]

I'll stick with my home made pc which I can repair myself.


To use a 4WD analogy: sure you can chose a Land Rover, for it's ease of repair and cheap and plentiful supply of spare parts... or you can choose a Toyota that won't go wrong in the first place - I know what I'd rather drive across a desert x

xxx

[A Yerbury]

ahh the old "but macs don't go wrong" rumour, Hmmmmmmmm....

[Dark-Jon]

ahh the old "but macs don't go wrong" rumour, Hmmmmmmmm....

Aha, I can vouch for this. I work with a PC (multiple :rolleyes: ) and have a PC at home that I built from components, none of this off the shelf malarky. I also have a dual G4 power mac (which the miss's uses more than me). Which goes wrong more often, yup the windoze machines.

***WARNING, TECHIE' ALERT***

Mac OS X is way more stable as an operating system than anything windows related. It's based on the Unix core and runs with protected memory, that means if an application crashes only the portion of memory it's loaded into goes with it not the whole operating system like with the windows blue screen of death. Its also ALOT more secure. The debarcle of Windows XP service pack 2 is fine example of windows security, update it and suddenly half your application don't have permissions to run, smart. There are ALOT less viruses for Mac's too, pretty much all those PC ones simply dont run on a Mac :D

Mac's also just work, they dont give stupid popups saying "you've disconnected such and such cable" when you know you've just unplugged it!!!! And how come when you put a Mac disc into a PC it goes mad and wants to format it, yet when you put a PC disc into a Mac it just gets on and reads it?

Mac's are very upgradable. Any 'PC' hard drive, CD/DVD/CDRW drive, memory and other internal drive will work in a Mac (within reason). I've got an extra 80GB disc, from a PC, and a Lacie CDRW, from a PC, in the Mac, all no problems. Yes, the Hard drive needed formating, but thats it. Even the CPU can be upgraded with at least 2 third party manufacturers making replacement CPU's, Sonnet is one of them cant remember the other. The only time you'll struggle is with the motherboard, but how many of you PC lovers have ever bothered to upgrade this part or just buy a new pc?? For those who want to know, Imac's use the laptop technology and how many PC laptops are easily upgradable? my mates aint and he complains all the time...

Contary to belief you dont need a 'Mac' monitor, all new Mac's and most of the recent one's use the digital connection found on most decent LCD monitors. For the older ones you can get an adapter for the PC monitor to go onto the Mac port, easy.

With regards to Mac bits not being easily available, how many Dell boxes can be diddled with without your warranty being voided?? Admitadely Apple are the same, but they're no worse than Dell ;)

I voted Mac but I do ALL my work on PC. PC's (unfortunately) are common place and are what everyone learns on. A friend of mine is an NT Administrator. He loves Mac's but says he's had to unlearn alot of stuff before he could get on with it. But for getting on with the rest of the world I am forced to use a PC (boo!)

One last thing, did you know that the first windows operating system was written on a Mac??

rant over

DJ :bunny:

(In all fairness, the first MacOS was a ripoff of something that Xerox wrote!!!)

[cerebus]

OK I'll bite :)

First some background, I've working in IT for over 15 years. I have worked with most types of computer and operating systems including Windows, Mac, Sun Solaris, Hewlett Packard HP-UX, Compaq Tru-64 (now being phased out by HP), IBM AIX, Silcon Graphics Irix and various distributions of Linux. I install, configure, use and repair all of these systems.

What do I use at home ? Apple Macs.

Why ? Because they are easier to use and are more reliable.

Are they perfect ? No, all computers can fail, all operating systems have flaws, all software can have bugs.

Am I happy with my choice ? Yes.

Do I want to make everyone using Windows change ? No, I couldn't care less what you do.

Except if you are going to go to all the trouble of building your own PC, selecting the very best components, constantly upgrading the hardware until you have your perfect combination of hardware, then why put an atrocious, unreliable, bug ridden, security nightmare of an operating system like Windows on it ? At least download Linux, build your own kernel and get the best performance from all that hardware you put together.

Just my opinion.

Cerebus the Geek

[Dark-Jon]

OK I'll bite :)

Except if you are going to go to all the trouble of building your own PC, selecting the very best components, constantly upgrading the hardware until you have your perfect combination of hardware, then why put an atrocious, unreliable, bug ridden, security nightmare of an operating system like Windows on it ? At least download Linux, build your own kernel and get the best performance from all that hardware you put together.



Because I play games and go to Lan parties :o and Linux doesn't cut the mustard at gaming yet :(

DJ :burnout:

[cerebus]

Because I play games and go to Lan parties :o and Linux doesn't cut the mustard at gaming yet :(

DJ :burnout:

True enough, Linux isn't really ready yet, my comment was mainly aimed at Didge who was advocating the benefits of the build your own approach.

Hmm Lan parties ? and I thought I was a geek :)

Cerebus the incompatible

[Didge]

I'll except what you say guys, but as Dark Jon says, and I mentioned originally....GAMES!
I agree about Windows, it's pretty crap in many ways, but XP is very stable. At least I've had no problems with it.
My main point was though, (as well as the gaming bit), the fact that I can buy upgrade parts anywhere that sells computers. I also love the fact that I can build a pc to my own spec, with no difficulty whatsoever.
I would NEVER buy any computer made by any company.

[MikeG]

Working in IT we use both Macs and PCs. To say that XP is stable is interesting, it is stable compared to earlier MS offerings but compared to OSX it is not.
I use a PC all day at work and when I go home I use a Mac. Personal preference and a desire to stave off the MS monopoly.

Dont buy a PC coz everyone else has one, if we follow that path we would all be riding Hondas, after all everyone tells me they are better and more reliable.

Last thought: My 65 year old mother wanted a computer, never having used one before, and she choose a Mac. Why, because it worked and was easy to use.

[A Yerbury]

Well I prefer macs! I am sick and tired of windows cock ups "unknow error....why tell me? I'm just flesh and blood!?" but the notion that macs dont go wrong is simply false, I used to freelance for some web design friends a few years back (a proper multi million levis and amex client type affair not some bloke with a copy of macromedia clobber!) any way, all the imacs and about half of the blue/charcoal g3s went back. plus at least half of the apple (made by samsung) monitors had lines on them! dont get me wrong I dont mind either OS and macs do seem more stable but the idea that they are somehow infallible just aint the case. One thing to be said for the pc is that one is forced to find out how it all goes together and make an effort, some like this tinkering but I am getting a bit bored of it now.....hmmm so its a g4 lap for me after all...!

[MikeG]

I seem to remember the lines on Mac screens, was it not something to do with stabalising the image on a large screen. From what I remember there were two faint hairlines running horizontaly 1/3 and 2/3 up the screen.

This is a favorite for putting as a background on a users PC - how childish.

[Dark-Jon]

I seem to remember the lines on Mac screens, was it not something to do with stabalising the image on a large screen. From what I remember there were two faint hairlines running horizontaly 1/3 and 2/3 up the screen.


I had a 17" Apple Studio display with my older G3 350. It was based on the Diamondtron or Trinitron (can't remember which) screen made by Sony I beleive, and the lines were a feature of all of those series of screens, Apple or otherwise.

The main problem with those screens was that a power regulator (or summint) wore out quite quickly causing the screen to overload and suddenly make a fizz noise, the screen would go super size briefly then shrink back to normal. Eventual the screen just sat there going fizz, fizz, fizz and you'd get no real image. That's how mine went. Good monitors though :)

DJ

[Rogerg]

Trinitron - Sony
Diamondtron - Mitsubishi/ NEC

indeed those lines were to stabalise the image.

peeps tend to imply this is a Mac problem because most Macs are used in a design environment & as such the users usually need larger/ better quality displays. Thus the problem is clearer.

just been playing with the new Apple 30" widescreen display - deemed too big!!

[Fodder]

I must have got lucky with my "ahem" copy of XP then, I installed it when I rebuilt my PC from the Motherboard up around two years ago and it has been the most stable platform I have ever worked on. True it is a bit hungry on the old resources but I have no complaints as it runs more than fast enough for me. :D

I think the world is finally cottoning on to all the keeping up with the Joneses bull!*!*!*!* that comes with PC's and realising that MHZ is not all that necessary for most folk. CPU's have been way fast enough for home use for the last few years IMO.
As for Macs? I haven't really spent a lot of time on them but thought they were neat when I have played.

[celt]

i play games (MMMMMMMMMMM half life 2) so the mac is out as its pooie for games.

nice design thou

[spacemonkey]

D
and realising that MHZ is not all that necessary for most folk. CPU's have been way fast enough for home use for the last few years IMO.
.

Maybe, but when you start messing with DVD files-shrinking, decoding etc etc, then every little MHz helps! I agree though that MHZ ain't everything as far as speed is concerned, which is why I only use AMD chips, and overclock them to death, which they love.

[Didge]

Maybe, but when you start messing with DVD files-shrinking, decoding etc etc, then every little MHz helps! I agree though that MHZ ain't everything as far as speed is concerned, which is why I only use AMD chips, and overclock them to death, which they love.


Me too Space. AMD's love to be overclocked. Lovely little chips.

[Dark-Jon]

Ahh the myth of ye olde Mhz

Mhz aint everything but thanks to an ignorant public AMD has to label their chips at the speeds they're equivalent too. Like my AMD 2800 that only runs at 2.25Mhz, how'z that work then?? As for Macs, they never played the Mhz game anyway.

TECHNOBABBLE WARNING

Apparently its do with the number of instructions per clock cycle and the length of the pipeline the information goes through. Each processor has a number of pipelines, graphics card manufacturers rant on about them all the time, they're like the lanes on a motorway, the more lanes the more traffic. These lanes are also a certain length. Mac ones are shorter than PC ones. This means information takes longer to go through a pipeline on a PC than a Mac pipeline per cycle.

Now, generally the PC's Mhz will compensate for this by running more cycles per second (higher Mhz equals more cycles per second) than the Mac. The difference starts to show however when errors occur. If an error occurs the whole pipeline is dumped and must be started again, more information is lossed per error on a PC chip.

Comparing the Pentium 4 (not sure which version) to the Apple G4 chip, the Pentium has 20 stages per pipeline as opposed to the G4's 7 stages (less is effectively faster at getting information out).

Example:

http://monster.feralyards.co.uk/images/pipeline.gif

So, at the end, a PC chip may run twice as fast (and hotter) than a Mac chip, but the Mac chip is potentially pushing out more info. As for the SSE2 and AltiVec stuff I think they use other means to boost information throughput.

Dark-Jon, part time Ubergeek :bunny:

(and yes I have an AMD, and yes its overlocked, along with the Ram, my Graphics Card....)

[spacemonkey]

[QUOTE=Dark-Jon
Dark-Jon, part time Ubergeek :bunny:

(and yes I have an AMD, and yes its overlocked, along with the Ram, my Graphics Card....)[/QUOTE]

Well that's ok, as long as you don't have silly little LEDs everywhere and striplights with more fans than a Michael Jackson trial.